Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Fri Nov 29, 2024 9:47 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:42 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I had the guitar clamped tight and the neck fitted to a flat fit . It is both Bolted and Glued . Mainly under the fret board , however there is a couple spots on Joint as well . After fitting , gluing , clamping and Bolting . Sat 24 hrs . Cleaned up and strung up then i see this . gaah [headinwall]
I REALLY dont want to take it apart . Gap is .009

Ideas ??

Attachment:
Rosewood Gap1.jpg
Attachment:
Rosewood Gap2.jpg


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:47 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5498
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Is it possible something has got trapped in there?

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:50 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
Is it possible something has got trapped in there?


I had same thought so I shined a light on opposite side with magnifiers on and cant see anything .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:59 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5498
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Just wonderin', I had one there the tenon was just touching the base of the mortice

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:08 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:44 am
Posts: 5498
First name: colin
Last Name: north
Country: Scotland.
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
End-grain sawdust (EIR?) and TB using a syringe and needle, wipe off the excess

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:18 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Colin North wrote:
End-grain sawdust (EIR?) and TB using a syringe and needle, wipe off the excess


Maybe . I have offically named this one bullfrog. More warts than you can count . This is one of those "nothing goes easy" Builds !

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:30 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1259
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
If it happened after you strung it up, is it possible that the neck pulled up some?

Maybe glue small slivers of wood glued under it; with the strings still on. No one will know but you, and everyone reading this.

I don't usually see things like that until someone points them out. Between the neck and the fb is always the worst. I keep telling myself that 98% of the joint is perfect, so it doesn't matter. Delusion helps. My near vision isn't that great either, so it doesn't even bother me!

_________________
Why be normal?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:41 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ken Nagy wrote:
If it happened after you strung it up, is it possible that the neck pulled up some? !


That's the only thing I can think of . The actual area is just over 1/2" . I KNOW i checked it before and didn't notice it, however ............. idunno

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:50 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:12 am
Posts: 712
Location: United States
I had this happen recently. The dry fit of the heel (dove tail) seemed perfect, so I glued it in. When I removed the clamps I had a similar gap that I could slide a thin piece of paper in. For some reason it did not seat properly when I glued it in. I steamed the neck off and worked on the joint some more and the new fit is really tight. I am so glad that I re-set it. In my opinion, it is the best option for you as well.

If you use a bolt, why do you need glue, other than at the FB extension?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 12:59 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
James Burkett wrote:
I had this happen recently. The dry fit of the heel (dove tail) seemed perfect, so I glued it in. When I removed the clamps I had a similar gap that I could slide a thin piece of paper in. For some reason it did not seat properly when I glued it in. I steamed the neck off and worked on the joint some more and the new fit is really tight. I am so glad that I re-set it. In my opinion, it is the best option for you as well.

If you use a bolt, why do you need glue, other than at the FB extension?


Suspenders and Belt Kinda Guy ! laughing6-hehe

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/



These users thanked the author WudWerkr for the post: surveyor (Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:34 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:19 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6256
Location: Virginia
Color Putty.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:22 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:02 am
Posts: 3263
Location: The Woodlands, Texas
First name: Barry
Last Name: Daniels
Not exactly belt and suspenders. More like belt and glue. The presence of the glue makes it difficult to adjust the neck, or your pants ;-)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:35 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Barry Daniels wrote:
Not exactly belt and suspenders. More like belt and glue. The presence of the glue makes it difficult to adjust the neck, or your pants ;-)


laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe laughing6-hehe

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:41 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:45 pm
Posts: 1476
First name: Trevor
Last Name: Gore
City: Sydney
Country: Australia
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
If you used a water based glue, the absorption into the end grain of the heel block can be enough to cause that amount of curvature and a consequential gappy fit. A good reason not to use glue at all and just use bolts!

Regarding hiding it, dark grain filler is an option, though it's probably at its least noticeable as it is. If it's bothering you enough to want to hide it, best to redo it.

_________________
Trevor Gore, Luthier. Australian hand made acoustic guitars, classical guitars; custom guitar design and build; guitar design instruction.

http://www.goreguitars.com.au


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:18 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 3389
Location: Alexandria MN
I agree with Trevor, better redo that one and figure out what caused it.

That’s a pretty short heel and I assume dovetail too. Any reason you didn’t make it longer?

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:44 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 10:22 am
Posts: 727
First name: Brian
Last Name: McDonald
City: Okanagan Centre
State: British Columbia
Zip/Postal Code: V4V2H6
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Leave it as is or take it apart.
Will you need to relocate the saddle after correcting the fit?
Methinks Jeff Healy wouldn’t notice.(RIP)

_________________
My memory is so good, sometimes I remember things that never happened.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:24 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
If it would be difficult to remove the neck, you could put a plane shaving of the same wood under the heel cap and fill in the little bit at the sides of the heel with wood filler, and touch up the finish.
You mentioned there are warts elsewhere, so it might not be worth the effort to make it perfect. If it sounds good and plays well some warts can be forgiven. Sometimes you just have to call it "done" and move on to the next one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:54 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:33 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Mount Vernon, Ohio
First name: Greg
Last Name: Maxwell
City: Mount Vernon
State: Ohio
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
You could do what Taylor does, and make a paste using colored wood putty and linseed oil. Apply to joint with a syringe and smooth out using tissue paper. Makes the gap nearly invisible.

_________________
It will probably be alright.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:41 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Clay S. wrote:
If it would be difficult to remove the neck, you could put a plane shaving of the same wood under the heel cap and fill in the little bit at the sides of the heel with wood filler, and touch up the finish.
You mentioned there are warts elsewhere, so it might not be worth the effort to make it perfect. If it sounds good and plays well some warts can be forgiven. Sometimes you just have to call it "done" and move on to the next one.



I am leaning that direction , This is a beautiful sounding guitar and plays well . It has just been one of those "nothing went easy " builds

https://youtu.be/4Za52ppUlWg

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:01 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member

Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:56 pm
Posts: 491
First name: Aaron
Last Name: Hix
City: Chatsworth
State: Georgia
Zip/Postal Code: 30705
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
Did you leave a small gap between the tenon end and the mortise base? If it touches, then the use of glue could have swelled the neck block enough that it pushes outward on the heel part of your neck tenon.

_________________
Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:52 am
Posts: 4524
First name: Big
Last Name: Jim
State: Deep in the heart of Bluegrass
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
A.Hix wrote:
Did you leave a small gap between the tenon end and the mortise base? If it touches, then the use of glue could have swelled the neck block enough that it pushes outward on the heel part of your neck tenon.


Yes there is approx .090 gap in that location .

I have just about decided to leave it alone . the actual gap is .005 .... barely fits a sheet of paper .

_________________
The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
http://wiksnwudwerks.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/groups/GatewayA ... rAssembly/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:31 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 2:35 pm
Posts: 2951
Location: United States
First name: Joe
Last Name: Beaver
City: Lake Forest
State: California
Focus: Build
You say the neck is bolted on? Assuming you considered the suggestions above, it could be that the lower bolt is bottoming out against the heel. That will hold it off. You can test it by putting a couple washers on the bolt,

_________________
Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust



These users thanked the author Joe Beaver for the post: WudWerkr (Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:38 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:01 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
One old woodworker's saying is "The enemy of Good is Better". Sometimes when you try to make something just a little better, you wind up making it worse.



These users thanked the author Clay S. for the post: WudWerkr (Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:13 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com