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..curious. Been using them but am about to tool up for an M & T. Not sure of any down side. Opinions?

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Thank You and Best To All

I do.

I switched from dovetail to double m&t, to m&t glued extension, to butt joint glued extension. It's easy peasy, and I don't see any real benefit from the tenon. I see no upside.

I've done a butt joint on a couple. Only downside I see is that I'm a little more hesitant to go with a lower profile on the heel (even though I run a dowel through the heel regardless).

I use a butt joint with a dowel and two inserts biting in the dowel. It seems to me that there’s more meat in the heel body than there is in a tenon.

Larry,

I use a M&T for aesthetic reasons. I do a parallel side heel and like the heel to be very thin. In the case of the guitar in the photo, a 1/2". I don't see how I'd be able to accomplish this with a butt joint and inserts so I create the structure using a tenon.

Best, M

When I do a butt joint i use a dowel in the heel. seems rock solid to me...

Butt joint with maple oak or birch dowel, I also use a spline joint using a mini biscuit joiner the biscuits are birch or beech M and T must be perfect ,watch robbie o brein/s youtube vid on m /t joint. there are others as well

I just finished two guitars, both with bolted butt joints and glued down fingerboard extensions. It is a great joint, but I did make the heel larger than I would if I used a M&T joint or a dovetail. There needs to be some meat for the bolts to grab onto.

A butt joint can work fine. Like everybody has said - you just need enough thickness in the heel to get the bolts secure. I like to combine it with a bolt-down fingerboard extension, basically using a version of this system from luthier's cool tools (my neck block is beefier than what is shown).
http://www.luthierscooltools.com/Tools.htm#Bolt-on

I have been using them. With a Tenon you can not only get the heel thinner but you can use a tighter radius in the transition to get your thumb in a Little Closer.

New username, same Pat Mac

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Pat

Thank you very much for taking the time to post comments/replies. For some reason I thought a butt joint was inferior in some regard and see the downside if one wants a thinner heel but perhaps I'll just perfect the method I currently use and skip the M&T joint all together. I just don't want my inherent laziness to get in the way of a better guitar..

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Thank You and Best To All

I generally use a butt joint, but lately I have been "burying" the heel in the end block to provide a little more thickness for the inserts while maintaining a normally proportioned heel. Cutting the recess for the "Spanish" heel is a little bit tedious so I am thinking of going to a Gibson style heel. One other advantage of the buried heel is the neck angle can be easily adjusted come "reset" time, or if you are more adventurous, you can undercut the recess and allow the bolt and string tension to set the neck angle (loosening the bolt raises the action, tightening the bolt lowers it. It is a variation on Stauffer's adjustable neck design.

Curious how that 'mortise' type cut for the heel is made in to the end block? Seems it would have to be exact with no room for error? And no wrong angles on the heel? Maybe missing something...Taylor does similar no?

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Thank You and Best To All

We have - I used a butted neck joint on the 7string archtop-to-oud conversion, and the three Style 42 instruments completed recently were of butted construction.

Pros are:

- Ability to shape the heel taper with a router template
- Little possibility of messing up the tenon alignment (because there is none!)
- Avoids some tricky flossing when there is little in the way of material outside the tenon on a tapered heel
- Avoids need to reinforce tenon to prevent bearing failure (but see below re: dowel)
- Initial fitting on a rounded neck area and tapered heel is a little easier

Cons are:

- Weaker construction unless the heel-to-shaft transition is lengthened OR cross-grain dowel added
- Dowel or other cross-grain insert preferred for reliable threaded insert insertion and retention
- Tenon provides quick/easy alignment for fitting checks

Certainly something to try both ways, then see which you prefer. After working with butted joint, the Cumpiano bolted tenon, and dovetailed joint, all seem within reach of a new builder, although the barrel bolt/KD socket head connector bolt Cumpiano joint seems to me to be the most tolerant of any misalignment.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Butt Joint and dowel for me too. Unless I am doing a heel like on Selmer guitars that is very thin then it's a bolt on M/T.

Clay S. wrote:
I generally use a butt joint, but lately I have been "burying" the heel in the end block to provide a little more thickness for the inserts while maintaining a normally proportioned heel. Cutting the recess for the "Spanish" heel is a little bit tedious so I am thinking of going to a Gibson style heel. One other advantage of the buried heel is the neck angle can be easily adjusted come "reset" time, or if you are more adventurous, you can undercut the recess and allow the bolt and string tension to set the neck angle (loosening the bolt raises the action, tightening the bolt lowers it. It is a variation on Stauffer's adjustable neck design.


"Curious how that 'mortise' type cut for the heel is made in to the end block? Seems it would have to be exact with no room for error? And no wrong angles on the heel? Maybe missing something...Taylor does similar no?"

Yes cutting the mortise is a bit fiddly. The heel is made with "straight sides" until it clears the mortise, plus a little, then shaped as usual. There is some latitude for setting the neck angle, as adjustments can be done to the heel or the bottom of the mortise. I think an "ice cream cone heel" or Gibson style heel might be a bit easier.
Taylor has adapted features of Stauffer's Legnani model's adjustable neck, making it non-adjustable by adding shims and using simpler hardware.

On the last couple of guitars, I've used a heel with straight sides butted to the headblock. I've cut the guitar sides so that the butt of the neck (reinforced by a vertical maple dowel) sits directly on the headblock, held by a single bolt. Coupled with a floating fretboard extension, this allows some design & build opportunities, though it does require a more substantial heel than a M&T build.

-- I can separate the issues of string action and string height over the soundboard by slightly slotting the bolt hole in the headblock.

-- By burying the neck butt by the thickness of the sides, I can use a "Taylor wedge" if needed. (So far, not needed.)

-- I can experiment with freeing the upper bout, as the fretboard is clear of the soundboard. (I dispense with a massive UTB by bracing the headblock against the tailblock or against the sides at the waist.)

When all the fitting and fiddling is done, I cut a heelcap for the neck that gives a clean finish.

Enthusiastic response from me about using the attachment array sold by Luthier's Cool Tools. Used the process on two guitars, and I intend to continue to use it. I much appreciate the stability of the neck/fingerboard in mating the neck to the body, and the ease of adjusting neck angle. I think the process takes the task from witchcraft to engineering.

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Peter Havriluk