Official Luthiers Forum!

Matthew-
Search around for Groz plane reviews and see what you think- some folks think they are OK, others say they are rubbish from one end to another.
Putting a $40 (with shipping) blade into a cheap plane doesn't make much sense to me.
The old saying about 'silk purse from a sow's ear' springs to mind.
A Hock blade in a nice old plane with a 'used up' blade is another matter entirely.

Cheers
John

point taken

Thanks for all the advice!

To ebay I go!

One more question. should the soul be totally free form any rust i assume?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Matthew-
You may have to consult with a 'higher authority' on that one. My soul is definitely rusty!

Never mind the typo- I just couldn't resist.....

seriously-
If you are shopping on eBay, the planes I 'stay away from' are ones that obviously have been 'all cleaned up and tuned up' on a belt sander and buffing wheel. Rust on the plane body wouldn't necessarily be a disqualifier for me, but it's usually accompanied by a rusty and pitted blade, which can be a major problem. Of course, if you are planning on a Hock blade anyway (and take George's advice about getting the 'right' blade for your plane- they are not all the same, even if the width matches...) you might find a bargain if the original blade is bad.
That said, (as you probably know) bargains on eBay can rapidly move out of that category when you add on shipping charges, so I always check on that before bidding.
BTW, for Stanley block planes, I'd stick with the 60½.
Cheers
John

Sorry...I guess I still have church from this morning on my mind

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

What about just making a wooden plane? I know there a a LOT of good wooden ones out there.

Granted you will need to maybe go through a learning curve to get it set up nice, but you can do almost anything with one.

Steve-
It is an appealing alternative. Wood planes definitely have a different (and to me, nicer) 'feel', and you can shape them to your preferences very easily. I've made a few wood-bodied planes and have a few commercial wood-bodied planes as well.
Most home-made wooden planes usually have wedge adjusters, which take a bit of time and skill to master, as you imply.

In the 1970's, I went to Lewis Luthier Supply (Bill Lewis) in Vancouver, intending to buy a wedge-adjusted Primus jointer for jointing guitar plates. Bill sized me up (as a rank beginner) pretty quickly and strongly advised me to spend the 'extra money' (I think the upcharge was about $20) to buy the Primus ECE with the screw adjuster. I still remember him saying " When you want to make a small adjustment, nothing beats the (ECE) screw adjuster. Save the wedge adjustment for scrub planes and the like." It was great advice.

Unless you make an 'infill' style plane with metal cheek plates, wood planes are also a bit on the 'chunky' side, especially in the block plane size range, I've found.
Still it's a good alternative, especially when you are looking at buying expensive specialized planes with contoured soles.
John

I was given a Groz as a present. I can't complain about it. It weighs a bit more than the Millers Falls. But the weight feels right in my hand. It has a lateral adjuster that the Millers Falls doesn't. I started tuning it up by taking about an 1/8" off the blade first and then sharpened it. The sole was flat, just needed a bit of a touch up. I cleaned up some of the paint on the frog. All in all, its been a good plane. I have the Miller Falls adjusted for a fine cut and the Groz for a bit thicker cut. I wouldn't have bought it for myself because of its rep, but I like the one I have.

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Aoibeann

hi guys im referring to the link that jhowell posted from sawmill creek (thanks)
ive got a question on this part taken from the article ....

Once more to the jointer table with 60-grit lubed with WD-40, I attack the plane soles. First I mount the iron and set the adjustable mouth to the position in which it will be used the most often, and then remove the iron to flatten the entire sole assembly. You can see how badly this Sargent’s sole is out of flat by the index dye remaining. This one is pretty bad, and will take two sheets of 60-grit followed by a sheet of 100-grit to make true. I flip plane ends around every few strokes to make sure I’m flattening the sole as evenly as possible.

Ive got a old blade from a friend to put on a no 5 plane that i have
Should i be leveling the first few strokes with the blade inserted in the frog
to set the right angle for honing the blade and getting the frog true ? .....

Or is their some kind of preporation method where you'd loosen the frog with blade in it
and place it on a dead flat surface ....set angle right
hold the frog , take blade off ...tighten up
Am i getting this right ?
ps.. I suggest that this article should be in the tuitorial section .thanks

So, I'm considering paying the extra and getting a good plane. Between these two, which would be the best "all around" plane for instrument making Veritas® Apron Plane or the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle? Which is the most 'ready to go' out of the box?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

-I've yet to see a new plane that didn't need tuning up. I special ordered a 102 last year from LN with a tight mouth-
the sole came .002" concave, and with the blade bed slightly askew to the sole. LN's customer service is excellent,
and they took the plane back right away- but I can (did) buy another Stanley 60 1/2 and tune it up instead..
The LN blades are not special in my (limited, second) experience. Buy a Hock high-carbon steel iron, if you use
Western tools. Wears smoothly, easy to sharpen well (including cutting the burr; very imp't). A workaday Japanese
iron is better, but..

This is the LN I was thinking about for $95

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/viewimage.ph ... yout=blank

it is 5 - 1/4 inches long by 1 - 9/16 inches wide. Blade is 1 - 1/4 inch wide by 1/8 inch thick.

that's not too small is it? the veritas is a scosche bigger. (thanks for that fancy word Robbie O )

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

The other option I would recommend is checking into reputable vendors who "Refurbish" planes and resell them. You can get a plane in great shape that has already been worked out for quite a bit less than the cost of a new "Fancy" plane (Though sometimes a little more than the cost of a new Stanley) Sawmill Creek is a good place to look for those guys, as they are pretty well known over on the Neanderthal Haven...

On Old tools.. Especially rusty old tools... I have said this many times... and I will repeat it again....

Old doesn't guarantee good! The steel isn't harder, the Castings aren't truer, etc... I have hardness checked Old Pre WWII Stanley vs new production and they are basically the same... Cutting tests typically show that Nearly all plain carbon steel irons that are properly heat treated last about the same amount of time.

Buying rusty old planes is a crap shoot, though! Sometimes, the plane is in great shape because it was owned and used by a Cabinet maker who kept it up in good shape.... Sometimes it is beat to death because it was owned by a Jobber who let it rattle around in the bottom of a bucket full of hammers and water... Sometimes they tried to regrind and burned the blade on a bench grinder and it is totally worthless... You just never know...

What I have typically found is that on the older planes.. You find the chip breakers are beat to death, bent, chipped, and messed up... causing all sorts of jams, chipped blades, and chatter... ruining the performance of the plane (And it makes you believe the Iron is no good..) Fix the old chip breaker or Replace it with a new Hock unit... and she runs like a champ with the original iron in it.

If you have the time, it is very rewarding... But... Don't fool yourself... Refurbing old iron planes can be a huge time suck.

Thanks

John

[/quote]

Good points. I love my 102/103 but the side as you mentioned makes them limited. One problem with the LV on the other hand is the side of the blades are angled after a short straight section there by making using the cheapie sharpening jig we like, a PITA to use. I have long intended to make myself a metal bodied plane that addressed both these issues but.... time, time , time.

Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

I am surprised by how popular the low angle blocks are with all of you over the normal bench plane angle, or the York pitch. Yes the low angle makes for slightly easier cutting, but as soon as it meets funny grain, or mixed grains - often the case in rosettes, you can get tear out even if the blade is sharpened to perfection and the mouth is closed tight. I don't see much point in using a plane if after that you need to work hard with sandpaper or a scraper to remove all fractures left behind. Sometimes you do not afford thinning the top more, and sanding shallows can be very visible under finish...

Using a high angle virtually proofs against most tearout. In addition the higher bevel angle makes for a longer lasting edge (at least in theory) and as long as the edge is sharp, the higher force needed to cut is a non-issue.

I've become sold on the York pitch after buying a low angle LV jackplane with an additional high angle blade. I use the aggressive blade for spruce jointing, and smoothing with the grain as long as the grain does not wave. The high angle works much better on everything else including nasty interlocked grain wood, curly maple, bearclaw spruce and the likes.
Basically the low angle jack and the block are the same, but on different scale.

I don't have any experience with the normal angle block planes, but I would imagine they are sensibly safer tearout-wise than a low angle. Every degree counts.

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Build log

I saw this and couldn't pass it up...i guess I'm impatient. It was a total of $30 buck shipping and all. What do you think?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

It is extremely easy to set up a plane for almost any blade pitch you want.... All you have to do is re-sharpen the blade....

The funny part is that most Bevel UP "standard" planes are actually bedded Steeper than "York Pitch"... and do run pretty nicely on ugly grain....

Here's how it goes:
Low Angle Bevel Up Plane... Bedding Angle = 20*, Blade sharpening angle = 25* = Total angle = 45*.... which is the same as a Standard Bench Plane!

Standard Angle Bevel Up Block Plane.... Bedding angle = 30*, Blade sharpening angle = 25* = Total angle = 55*.... which Actually Steeper than York Pitch (50*)...

But... Say you are feeling Cheap and want to resharpen an iron so you have a "York Pitch" (50*) Bevel Up, Low Angle Block Plane.... Sharpen your iron with a 30* Microbevel and Viola... York Pitch! (30*+20*=50*)

You can even do the same with a "Standard" bench plane bedded at 45*....
Hone a 5* back-bevel on a Spare iron and Viola... you now have a plane with a 50* cutting angle or York Pitch...

And you now you can set your Plane for an almost Infinite number of Angles... 1 for Each Wood... and have something else to fool with to distract you from Building Guitars!

Thanks

John

Looks like a good bet.
Warm up your sharpening stones!

Cheers
John

Have you ever tried the new versions of LV Veritas Block Planes - the DX60 or NX60?

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=61963&cat=1,41182

I'm also getting interested in a new block plane and was wondering how those models compare to the Lie Nielsen.

thanks, Christian

Todd-
Thanks for the detailed comments on the new Veritas planes.
I'm glad to hear that they aren't that great, really - because I don't like the looks at all. I guess I'm a 20th-century sorta person.
Not that a $200++ block plane is real tempting to me anyhow..

Cheers
John

Todd,

thanks for your opinion. While I like the design quite a bit, it's good to know that it's not the magic perfect block plane I hoped it to be - especially since it's even more expensive than the Lie Nielsen.

I have a local lee valley, so I'll check the various block planes and the apron plane out in person before making any decision - maybe one of them fits my hand perfectly... but it's better to go there with a critical mindset and the expectation not to buy - you can't imagine how much money I'd like to spend each and every time I visit the store (well...maybe you can )

cheers, Christian

well, I guess I got lucky with this one! Out of the box this Stanley 60 1/2 "sweetheart" was already set up and plane was very sharp. I was able to start cutting right out of the box!!

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

I like the wooden planes by Mujingfang (sold by lee valley) and they are very easy to set up.
Just a few taps of the mallet and they can give fine shavings.
The plane iron is thick and retains edge quite nicely.
Main thing I like most is the light weight and ability to use it in a pull or push motion.
In comparison, my Stanley block plane (newer made) takes much longer time to setup and is too heavy for my taste, not to mention the thin plane iron simply can't the the job properly.

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Sen CL Goh
http://senguitar.blogspot.com

Did you end up putting any work into the plane and are you still going to buy a replacement blade?

Just wondering because I am shopping right now.

thanks
matt