Official Luthiers Forum!

What are the benefits of having a "low angle" block plane used in guitar building?

In the price range of less than 50 bucks, what is the best brand (I know most recommend used but I want all the parts to work and I don't want to deal with ebay)? I was thinking http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... blockplane

I know it will need to be set up properly.

THanks

MV

Maybe you could find an old Stanley blade that would make the Sears plane do better. I say old because the steel will most likely be better.

When talking about vintage planes and them having good steel how "old" do they need to be to have good steel?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

I have one of those stanley LA bock planes and use it all the time
Base needed flattening, and blade sharpened but all else works fine
The adjustable mouth and the screw adjustment for the blade are a very good thing IMHO

I have one too and it's not a bad plane. As for the old having better steel thats not always true. I have a bunch of old stanley planes and many of them need a lot of work when you first get them and the blades in them are not as good as some of the new replacment blades you can get from Hock tools or Lie-Nielsen. A upgraded blade can make a so-so plane a whole different tool....Mike

Here is an excellent link about refurbished planes:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=60970

You can save a boatload of money if you are willing to put in some time on these old tools. Somewhere I have a link to a person that sells already refurbished planes. I'll try to find it and post also.

BTW... No affiliation, but Sawmillcreek is an incredible resource for woodworking.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

The plane in itself is quite OK, mine didn't need much work at all on the sole, but the blade is poor quality, I ended up spending another 30$ for a real iron from Lee Valley.

The low angle plane bed makes it useful for trimming end grain, but very much less so for face grain. If you are looking for a do it all small plane, it is a poor choice imho, because you can get a lot of tear-out. One fix is to regrind the iron to a higher angle, but that will make it less good for endgrain. Ideally you will need two planes or at least 2 blades. You can buy a good blade, regrind, and keep the default one for the occasional endgrain, since we don't do much endgrain block planing in guitar building anyway.

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Build log

I have an older version of that plane and it's my only block plane. And after a setup, I think it's an excellent plane for the money. I've been considering a replacement hock blade, but it really does everything I need to do with it as is, I probably just need to sharpen it a little more often. You might be able to get one even cheaper if you shopped around. Check Amazon.com.
Kent

I have a Miller's Falls low angle plane. I use it all the time. I can't compare it to a Stanley because I've never used one, but I have nothing but praise for the Miller's Falls plane. Its a 56.

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Aoibeann

I have only 1 plane that I use in my shop and it is an old Stanley low angle block plane. I use this for many jobs and would not let it out of my shop

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I agree in general with Todd Stock's recommendations above- it's probably smarter to spend more and get a better tool, if you can afford it.

However......


You could probably get an eBay plane delivered for under $50 (recent auctions of 60½ planes ended between $10 and $66 plus shipping ($10-20 within the US)) but they can need work, be damaged (splits around the mouth) or have ground-back blades.
A Hock blade is $32 plus shipping, so you are quickly 'getting up there' as Todd pointed out.

So, my advice would be to go with the cheaper plane if that's what you can afford now, and just make sure you do your best to keep it sharp. The Stanley (or Record) is probably a better bet than some of the really cheap offshore knockoffs, but I don't know this from experience.

Later, if you get a better plane, you can use this one for 'utility' use. Planes work quite well for smoothing aluminum sheet edges!

Cheers
John

You do need to be careful that the upgrade blade will fit your plane.

As a toolmaker,I agree that not all old tools are better(I've rehardened quite a few poorly hardened chisels),but odds are the old 1940's or 50's Stanley will be better. Sears is well known for poor cutting tools.

George-
Certainly no argument on that from me! I've had a couple of Sears chisels that are only fit for scraping paint.
The plane in the 'Sears' link from the original poster is actually a new Stanley @$39.99

Cheers
John

One very good point I've seen a couple of times (on woodworking websites like Sawmill Creek) is to make your first plane a good-quality one (Veritas, or LN, or a guaranteed well set-up 'vintage' plane from a reputable dealer) and learn how to keep it really sharp, so that you have a 'reference point' for comparing those eBay and flea-market planes, which can be a lot of fun when you have more experience.
If you have a skilled hand woodworker nearby, let him put a sharp tool in your hand and go to work on a block of scrap. It wasn't until I was handed a really sharp chisel that I 'understood' how it should feel. After that, I went to the sharpening stones when things didn't 'feel right', and probably avoided some mistakes and splits.
Another thing to keep in mind (this can be useful when justifying your purchase to family members ) is that if you buy a good tool and later decide you don't need/want it, you can always sell it for a good % of the purchase price. (Check out Veritas/LN prices on ebay). That cheap Stanley/Groz/whatever plane will be strictly yard-sale fodder when you don't want it anymore.
(You can see that I've moved over to Todd's side of the discussion even more, encouraging you to spend a bit more money. The LV apron plane would be my suggestion, as well- it is a very nice tool and will probably do all the jobs you have in mind for your block plane.)

John

What to avoid in that eBay plane.....
(If the pictures are blurry, be a bit suspicious!)

What about a cheap GROZ low angle block plane and a Hock blade?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Matthew-
Search around for Groz plane reviews and see what you think- some folks think they are OK, others say they are rubbish from one end to another.
Putting a $40 (with shipping) blade into a cheap plane doesn't make much sense to me.
The old saying about 'silk purse from a sow's ear' springs to mind.
A Hock blade in a nice old plane with a 'used up' blade is another matter entirely.

Cheers
John

point taken

Thanks for all the advice!

To ebay I go!

One more question. should the soul be totally free form any rust i assume?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

Matthew-
You may have to consult with a 'higher authority' on that one. My soul is definitely rusty!

Never mind the typo- I just couldn't resist.....

seriously-
If you are shopping on eBay, the planes I 'stay away from' are ones that obviously have been 'all cleaned up and tuned up' on a belt sander and buffing wheel. Rust on the plane body wouldn't necessarily be a disqualifier for me, but it's usually accompanied by a rusty and pitted blade, which can be a major problem. Of course, if you are planning on a Hock blade anyway (and take George's advice about getting the 'right' blade for your plane- they are not all the same, even if the width matches...) you might find a bargain if the original blade is bad.
That said, (as you probably know) bargains on eBay can rapidly move out of that category when you add on shipping charges, so I always check on that before bidding.
BTW, for Stanley block planes, I'd stick with the 60½.
Cheers
John

Sorry...I guess I still have church from this morning on my mind

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma

What about just making a wooden plane? I know there a a LOT of good wooden ones out there.

Granted you will need to maybe go through a learning curve to get it set up nice, but you can do almost anything with one.

Steve-
It is an appealing alternative. Wood planes definitely have a different (and to me, nicer) 'feel', and you can shape them to your preferences very easily. I've made a few wood-bodied planes and have a few commercial wood-bodied planes as well.
Most home-made wooden planes usually have wedge adjusters, which take a bit of time and skill to master, as you imply.

In the 1970's, I went to Lewis Luthier Supply (Bill Lewis) in Vancouver, intending to buy a wedge-adjusted Primus jointer for jointing guitar plates. Bill sized me up (as a rank beginner) pretty quickly and strongly advised me to spend the 'extra money' (I think the upcharge was about $20) to buy the Primus ECE with the screw adjuster. I still remember him saying " When you want to make a small adjustment, nothing beats the (ECE) screw adjuster. Save the wedge adjustment for scrub planes and the like." It was great advice.

Unless you make an 'infill' style plane with metal cheek plates, wood planes are also a bit on the 'chunky' side, especially in the block plane size range, I've found.
Still it's a good alternative, especially when you are looking at buying expensive specialized planes with contoured soles.
John

I was given a Groz as a present. I can't complain about it. It weighs a bit more than the Millers Falls. But the weight feels right in my hand. It has a lateral adjuster that the Millers Falls doesn't. I started tuning it up by taking about an 1/8" off the blade first and then sharpened it. The sole was flat, just needed a bit of a touch up. I cleaned up some of the paint on the frog. All in all, its been a good plane. I have the Miller Falls adjusted for a fine cut and the Groz for a bit thicker cut. I wouldn't have bought it for myself because of its rep, but I like the one I have.

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Aoibeann

hi guys im referring to the link that jhowell posted from sawmill creek (thanks)
ive got a question on this part taken from the article ....

Once more to the jointer table with 60-grit lubed with WD-40, I attack the plane soles. First I mount the iron and set the adjustable mouth to the position in which it will be used the most often, and then remove the iron to flatten the entire sole assembly. You can see how badly this Sargent’s sole is out of flat by the index dye remaining. This one is pretty bad, and will take two sheets of 60-grit followed by a sheet of 100-grit to make true. I flip plane ends around every few strokes to make sure I’m flattening the sole as evenly as possible.

Ive got a old blade from a friend to put on a no 5 plane that i have
Should i be leveling the first few strokes with the blade inserted in the frog
to set the right angle for honing the blade and getting the frog true ? .....

Or is their some kind of preporation method where you'd loosen the frog with blade in it
and place it on a dead flat surface ....set angle right
hold the frog , take blade off ...tighten up
Am i getting this right ?
ps.. I suggest that this article should be in the tuitorial section .thanks

So, I'm considering paying the extra and getting a good plane. Between these two, which would be the best "all around" plane for instrument making Veritas® Apron Plane or the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle? Which is the most 'ready to go' out of the box?

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Bro. Matthew A.
Oklahoma