Official Luthiers Forum!

Martin Guitars is the best!! Like Hesh said they always go above and beyond to help the small luthiers. Dick Boak is one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. Chris Martin is also a great guy.
Although I may not have put it in the words that Rick did, I totally see where he is coming from. If you ever got to spend any time with someone from Martin you would see it too.

I, like Rick, and several others who post here, know the contributions that
Chris Martin and Dick Boak give and continue to give to the guitar
community. People will disagree on what they want from a guitar and
that is to be expected -- that is what propells the industry, the search of
new sonic possibilities. As a practical matter, it was competitive,
corporate guitar concerns -- particularly, Santa Cruz, Collings, Larivee,
and especially Taylor -- that raised the bar on the quality of
commerically avaialble acoustic guitars. The fact is that although Martin's
quality was lackluster during the 1970's and 1980's, some of those
problems were due to a remarkable lack of knowledge, industry wide,
about how to maintain and repair guitars. There's been a great advance
in the understanding of wood movement, fretting, and the like over the
years. Taylor and the aforementioned band of smaller guitar concerns
brought the quality level of acoustic guitars way up and nudged Martin to
improve their overall product quality. Chris, Dick, and others brought
about those changes, and continue to do so.

The marketplace is a wonderful arbiter of demand and quality. If you do
not find a guitar satisfying, you needent buy it. There are lots of choices.
However, the choice of purchasing a hand made guitar is no more an
arbiter of quality than is purchasing a Taylor, Martin, Collings and so
forth. Every builder has made and occasionally still will make a a guitar
that just isn't that satisfying -- it falls outside the curve for that builder.
There are plenty of guitars on both sides of the sonic aisle if you will that
I find satisfying or not and yet there are markets for both. Marin is a
large concern and has a greater band of products and hence a greater
breadth of great instruments and those that fall outside the normal
distribution. That because of the greater production numbers we can
observe their distribution in a way that we cannot even for the better
handmaker, doesn't in and of itself make the handmakers any more
consistent, rather that we don't have the data to make an informed
judgement. There is also the mystery factor -- that someone holed up in
their shop is somehow more romantic than your typical factory. While
romantic, this is no better an arbiter of quality than a coin toss.

For those that suggest that the wood on a Martin isn't stable, I say what
is their evidence? Martin's wood is maintained at a level of temperature
and humidity that far exceeds that of most of the guitar building world,
particularly the hand market. Those of you using their $30 hygrometers
or sling psychrometers are likely highly deficient. On the case of the $30
hygrometers, I've found swings of as much as 15% from one to another,
and with the sling psychrometers, they are dependent on how consistent
the user is at swinging the sling in a consistent manner as well as taking
several readings consecutively and averaging them. I gave up on those
years ago and bought a $300 digital hygrometer that is lab calibrated and
accurate to +/-2% -- as accurate as you can get and yet as hard as I try,
my environment isn't as consistent as Martin. Martin and Taylor as well
as others maintain their build and wood within those parameters whereas
the average hand builder simply cannot.

Guitars are wood, folks, and wood despite being well cared for will move,
some more than others. Some of this is due to the wood on any particular
instrument and some is most definitely the client or the store selling the
guitar. Every builder I know has had wood that they have had for years
and years, maintained at the build environment, and even from the same
flitch, there have been pieces that for one reason or another just go
wonky and there is no other explanation than that its wood. Period. It is
no reflection on the builder or their procedures. Years ago, Taylor sent a
letter to their dealers emploring them to take measures to maintain the
environment in their stores so that instruments would behave as they do
when they left the factory.

As Rick already mentioned, Dick, with Chris' support helped form ASIA
and both participate in the symposia. They are both dedicated to ASIA in
a way that most don't understand. ASIA has had its hiccups over the
years and I can tell you from personal conversations with Dick that he was
terribly frustrated with those hiccups, but that there was only so much
time that he could dedicate to ASIA. And Chris is every bit as passionate
about guitars and not just his. That Martin Guitars is in the business of
making money -- money for the company, money for the families that
have worked at the Martin factories -- is not, and should not be the
arbiter of whether their product is worthy of the price they charge. There
are any number of instrument makers that any and all of us find
satisfying or not at both ends of the price spectrum -- years ago Jeff
Traugott got something like 15 or 20 pages on the 13th Fret commentary
on whether his instruments were worth what he charges. Who cares? I
say, gei geshundt. If Jeff and others can get whatever they are charging
for their guitars, all the better. The violin lutherie community has been
earning a better living than most guitarmakers because their market is
sophisticated and understands the amount of work and what a great
luthier can draw out of a handmade instrument. Why can't we do the
same?

In sum, Chris Martin and Dick Boak are decidedly deeply involved in the
guitar community and dedicated not only to the concerns of The Martin
Guitar Company, but also to that of the acoustic guitar. To suggest
otherwise is simply wrong.

Nicely stated, David....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGMY4_0jw5Y

Listen well. (then go listen to all the recommended links for Tony, also )

Then remember that the same folks who created that instrument would, with simply a phone call, go out on the floor and take a template and trace the outline, and mail it to you if you wanted to make one for yourself. Or sell you all the parts, complete, at a crazy-low price, again, so you could make one yourself.

They have never acted like a corporate giant. And they are also in the record books, as the oldest family owned business in America still in operation and still owned by the family. Understand the above, and you can understand why poo-pooing on Martin is like stepping on "The Old Man's" toes You know, that nice old fella who's never been anything but kind to you and all the neighborhood kids as you grew up. The one that, when the new kid in the neighborhood decides to raid his garden, all the local kids will stand up for, and beat up on the new kid for even thinking of doing so.

Welcome to the neighborhood, kid .  Stick around, but don't mess with The Old Man, or you're messin' with all 'o us.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] "direct attack"...

Charlie, that's what I saw red about, too, but it was your own uninformed direct attack at a company that is not here to defend itself that I objected to. If you'd hold yourself up to the same standards you want from others, you'd mellow out a bit.

I'd suggest that in general we not rag on those about whom we know little, and that we not attempt to over-politicize the music industry. I've been going to NAMM shows since 1972, and have gotten to know a lot of the top dogs in the guitar business, and I can tell you this...they all love guitars, and they'd all make a hell of a lot more dough in some other industry. Even the guys I don't particularly like in the biz do love guitars.   Most are very supportive of the entire industry, many are very appreciative of hand made guitars, and all are concerned about the waste of the resources we all depend upon to build instruments.

I've had the good fortune to moderate two industry breakfast panels at NAMM shows for Acoustic Guitar Magazine. The first was a group of major execs from the big companies, the second was representatives from boutique makers.   Both of those events were summarized in the magazine in feature articles.   I can honestly say that while everyone was concerned about money, all saw the solution as encouraging more people to play guitar, and that guitar playing was a societally healthy recreation. These, for the most part, are a very passionate group of CEO's who just love guitar.

Please don't knock 'em 'til you've met them.

And if it weren't for these folks populating the world with affordable guitars, none of us would likely have customers buying up the ladder to our products.

Rick Turner, 3 Martin owner who'd like a 4th...
1929 Style 1 soprano uke (date approximate)
1919 00-18
1962 D-28
2008 D-18A?[/QUOTE]

Gee Thats much better Rick,
Im hearing you much better now and I understand alot more of what you are saying when you phrase it like that,
I bet it wasnt that hard either - you catch more flies with honey, as they say.
I am aware of some of your accomplishments in the industry, and Im aware of some of Martins contributions to the guitar world in general, and its iconic standard, (heck its practically diefied)
Although Im no expert Ill readily admit...
Im certainly more enlightened about them now, than I was before,,,
Ive never read a history of Martin guitars, or anything like that but Ive read summaries of thier history in other books, such as Claptons Guitar etc...
Ill have to bone up...
One thing I do know is that they definitely benefited from being at a place in history where they had practically unlimited access to skilled labour and the finest materials on Earth with which to build guitars with - which is part of the reason they have produced some of the finest guitars ever made, no doubt... whether or not the Xbrace was the true invention of CFM#1, or a borrowed idea - I wouldnt wanna get into.. and it will remain for the guitar historians to sort out...
Thanks for straightening me out, all those who responded to my post,,,
If they are as Mom and Pop as everyone says then that surely is a testament to thier commitment to build fine instruments, in a down home manner...
I also have heard alot of disappointed comments on many a guitar board, about the guitars they have built post-war... and while Ive played a few exceptionally nice Martins myself, Ive played alot of stinkers too...

Mabye this Authentic line will enable them to reclaim the mantle they once held, with thier pre war instruments.... that were universally touted as the best ever made, and a period where it was far more difficult to find a bad sounding Martin, than a good one.

Cheers
Charlie

Nicely said and appreciate the hydrometer tip, but you really need to learn the art of precis

I personally think it's great to Martin doing that. I wish they could get more, it only helps us all out.
I really like David B's post and the comment about the violin family of instruments and it's customers. There really is a lot of work that goes into a quality instrument.

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I am shocked . . . shocked, that Elderly would confuse purfling with binding.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]I am shocked . . . shocked, that Elderly would confuse purfling with binding.[/QUOTE]

Well at least they didn't describe the "kerfing" or call these the latest Martin "builds"

Howard you have changed my vocabulary successfully so maybe there is hope for Elderly

To my eye that pickguard looks more like the 1960s or 70s celluloid than like the 1930s version. A quibble perhaps, but they don't call it the "almost-authentic" series.

I'm all in favor of factories charging what the market determines to be the price, and also making handmade guitars look like a bargain.

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Delmar?

Wasn't he one of the guys in "O Brother, Where art Thou?"

Yeah, Everett, Pete, and Delmar. That's them.

And don't forget Tommy, the accomp, accompan, uh, the guitar player.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Serious????

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Ya almost had me believing you....good one!


I didn't think Homer had written a sequel....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=ToddStock] On UMGF, Jim Merrill compared the Delmar laminate guard with one on an actual '36, and said that it appeared as though the two guards came from the same sheet. According to Jim, Martin's material is made to duplicate the pattern developed by Henry Stocek for his Deep River pickguard material.

The Delmar guard has a thin layer of acrylic laminated to the top and is attached to the guitar with a film adhesive, so is supposed to be stable enough to finish over. Currently a $125 upcharge from Martin, it looks as though they are gradually moving to the Delmars due to the unfavorable feedback on the pepperoni patterned dot-matrix guards.

I have a Delmar in-house on a top & side refinish - I'll post pics when I get it done.[/QUOTE]

I'll stand corrected as to pattern. But this raises an interesting issue about what is authentic. If there are improved methods and materials used, then it pretty clearly is not the closest they could get to being a replica; that would be celluloid adhered to the top with acetone and lacquered over. Once you start incorporating modern improvements, which do you use and which do you not use in an "authentic" copy?

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

If it were my decision, I'd go with something like Grevin's "Tortis" and finish over.   The problem with lacquer over celluloid is that the celluloid shrinks over time causing the famous Martin pickguard top cracks.   Materials like Tortis are (from what I understand) much more stable, and can be made to look exactly like vintage pickguard material. So with a stable top, a stable pickguard, and traditional unstable lacquer, you'd be pretty close.   Of course someone would claim that the original shrinking pickguards sounded better...

Or just make them dead-nuts original and cut the warranty to ten years.

Perhaps acrylic will stabilize celluloid, but what about the off-gassing right through the spruce? It will, you know. Maybe if celluloid is sealed on both sides before adhering it...

But boy, have I repaired a lot of those pickguard cracks!    It got to where I could tell people over the phone where the cracks in the tops of their guitars were when they called and said, "I've got an older Martin and it looks like the pickguard is..." And that was all they had to say.   I'd say, "Yes, it's curling up and you have a crack between the pickguard and the bridge on the string side and perhaps one at the bottom side as well."   "How did you know?" "It's my job to know these things..."

Every instrument has a weakness, and that's what we as builders need to learn from. With Martins, it's pickguard cracks, neck resets, D-35 binding popping loose in the waist, D-35 fret ends popping up...etc.   With Gibsons it's broken pegheads...etc.

To slightly amplify Todd's comment above: Note that the 3M stuff that many are using to adhere pickguards is a "transfer adhesive"...it's not double stick tape.   With it, you are literally transferring a very thin and even layer of nothing but adhesive from the backing paper onto the pickguard.   There is no film layer in there whatsoever, and so there will be no sealing of either surface from the effects of the other.

Also, the 3M transfer adhesive (if that's what they are using) is designed for non-porous surfaces. It does not stick well directly on wood. Perhaps they seal first?

_________________
Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=ToddStock]Agree. Just had a conversation with a potential buyer about the D-28A...when I mentioned what I thought was a pretty steep price, he started talking trim details, tuners, and pickguards. [/QUOTE]

Did he ever talk sound?

Jim

[QUOTE=Hodges_Guitars]I am dissappointed that they are making the shanendoah series, which really should not be considered Martin guitars.[/QUOTE]

They dropped the Shenandoah series in 1996. They were made from 1983 to 1996.

Jim