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Rod, I think that what Charlie said in his rant was as belittling and insulting a statement as I've seen here.   Just because Chris Martin is not an OLF poster does not mean that I think it's OK to take such tacky and cheap shots at his company or the guitars they build.

I'll say it again...the D-18A that I played at the Martin factory in 2006 was as good a D-18 (or any mahogany dread) as I've ever played, and I've been playing them and fixing them for 44 years now. The fit and finish were just beautiful, the feel was great, and the sound was something to put fear into the heart of any luthier here...and set the benchmark just a bit higher for future work.   If you make dreadnoughts, then you should at least check out what Martin, the company that invented them, is doing.

Don't approve of Rick's tone and word choice (as usual), but I do agree with his main point.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Martin offering the D-28A at whatever price they can get for it. They're not after anybody's market. To my knowledge, they've never gone after any of the many Martin replicators for having "stolen" their designs. Whether or not they would have a good court case if they tried, I don't know. But the Martin company has done more than any other to advance the craft of guitarmaking and to establish and build the voracious guitar market that we all benefit from.

Andrew

Well said Rick.
Without Martin where would we be today. They should be praise for such
an outstanding family business. There company IS the acoustic guitar.
We small time luthier should be proud to see the success of Martin.
Without it the successful century plus of the acoustic guitar just wouldn't
have existed. CF Martin a Bob Taylor have done plenty for our craft and
we should all be grateful for their innovations and success. All of us copy
from their successes.

We as small time builders will never compete with Gibson, Martin Taylor
etc. We need to make our own mark as small luthiers with handcrafted
guitars. Think outside the box and do something different if you can to
make someone say....

Hey... I want a custom Lazy Dog, or a Custom Renaissance, or a custom
whatever instead of a factory Martin.   Either way the customer should get
a great guitar.

My clients love sifting through the wood pile and picking out their own
zoot. The love photos of the build in process. They love the personal
attention and treatments. But that is what they are looking for.

THE BEST COMPLIMENT I EVER GOT for one of my guitar was last week.
When we were having horrible fires here and thousands were homeless,
one of my former customers said when the evacuated, the 1st thing his
wife grabbed besides the kids and the dog, was the custom guitar I made
for her. To her is was priceless and not replacable. She said if was a
Martin I could just go buy another one.

It is that feeling we need in our clients.

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Boy do I need the edit button...sorry for the typos

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[quote=Rick Turner]Rod, I think that what Charlie said in his rant was as belittling and insulting a statement as I've seen here.   Just because Chris Martin is not an OLF poster does not mean that I think it's OK to take such tacky and cheap shots at his company or the guitars they build.[/quote]

Every time my computer crashes I curse Microsoft. I've never met Bill Gates, I hear he's a really nice guy too. But sometimes us lowlife's get the short end of the stick and a little venting is ok.

Maybe what Charlie said could be seen as belittling but it was to a major US corporation that doesn't give two rips about Charlie, who he is, what his needs are or what kind of guitar he plays (as long as it's a Martin). CFM has done a great job of getting their guitars in the hands of those who will make them lots of money. Just take a good look at the Artist and limited edition series, Paul Simon, 4 Eric Clapton models, 2 Johnny Cash models, Woodie Guthrie, Andy Griffith (poor Matlock) to name but a few. They certainly cover a large range of musical genre. You think all of these people had a hand in the design of the guitar now available to the public? I don't know but I kind of doubt it.

Yes, CFM guitar company has done a great job of marketing and promoting their product. They are most likely the largest producers of acoustic guitars in the US and at the end of the day what do they really care about? $$$$$, that's why anyone goes into business right. They're primary directive is not to save the world, although some good will might make them look better, it's not there bottom line goal.

Charlie's rant was nameless (to the degree that the company is named after a man, but the man doesn't make all the decisions around there I'm sure, that's what board members are for) but your wasn't, that's my beef.

I can certainly respect the fact that the guitar you played at the factory sounded as good as any mahogany dred you've played, but it really amazes me that anyone here who have been professionally building for some time (yourself included) should be afraid of the D-18A or the D-28A. These guitars are for the Martin lovers of the world of which I'm sure there are plenty, probably more so than any other one guitar company out there. But the bottom line is, companies like H&D, Taylor, Larrivee, Froggy Bottom etc. are the ones which are in competition with Martin. No one here has to worry that Martin is going to steal a customer from them. If the small boutique builder has branded himself well and their guitars speak for themselves, they don't have to worry about "the big boys" because they are in a market which is looking past the factory guitar, even the "high end" factory guitars. Not everyone wants a Martin.

Competition is good for any market, it always allows the cream to rise to the top. Sometimes though the cream can look better to some folks than it does to others, and it doesn't all ways taste the same to everyone either.

Martin has been the standard for well over a century, no one is denying that, but the times, they are a changing, that is pretty obvious.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Andy,
That is a great story (except for the fire part) and a tribute to custom builders like yourself.
chris

_________________
Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

Charlie, many of us value your opinion, even if we don't agree with it all the time. Very few people agree with my opinions, but that's ok.    No one's opinion is stupid, though, just different. No one's opinion is stupid, that's in the rules.

Ron

_________________
OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

No one's opinion is stupid, that's in the rules

There's a quote for the books   I may use that as my tag line....



MUST we stick up for others? Didn't this just cause a bunch of needless trouble, oh, a couple days ago? Do we never learn?

If someone's not happy with another's response, let -them-, or a -moderator-, respond to it.

Please.

Clearly there are some of you don't know anyone at Martin nor have you talked to them about guitars, and those of you screaming "capitalist pigs" under your breath also don't know diddly about money and the music industry. It must feel so good to have such an easy target for your feelings of inadequacy.

I know first hand that all the management and sales level people at Martin to whom I have talked (probably twenty of them over the years) care as passionately about guitars as all of us here. Most play, and pretty decently, too, and they are major supporters of music and guitar education, charitable causes, and music festivals.   Quite a few Martin workers are second or even third generation guitar makers.   I've had breakfasts, lunches, and dinners with Chris, Dick Boak, Tim Teel, and a number of other Martin folks, and we always talk guitars, music, and about the health of the entire music industry. These folks are no less passionate about what they do than any of us here.   They just happen to run one of the largest two acoustic guitar factories in the US.

And what's wrong with caring about money? Without it any of us who are pros (only about 30% here, from what I'm told) would not be able to continue making guitars. So at the end of the day, money is one of the things that we do need to look at.

But the way Martin is being portrayed here is as though they were the robber barons of the guitar business. And it must feel so good to hold oneself so morally superior to all that, right?   Come on now, grow up, guys. Guitar making is a business, and Martin is very good at it.

If any of you make guitars that are so, so superior, then what's the problem? Sell 'em, make dough, and shut up and be happy!

You assume to much Rick.

_________________
My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod, I'd like to know what I've assumed that isn't correct. Could you comment on that please?

Wow....in this thread you could replace every "Martin" with "Gibson"
and every "D18 D28" with "Les Paul" and every "pre-war" with "1950s"
then...



...then replace every "Authentic" with "Historic" and it would be the
same discussion.  Except in the case of Gibson Les Paul Historics
it has been going on for almost 20 years now.

I have to chuckle reading this thread.

As Rick says - this goes right back to what we were discussing in the marketing and branding thread.

Now, I think perhaps what it's worth realising about this particular situation is that it's not *just* about leveraging brand loyalty. It's about rewarding it too.

I know, I know: I've gone crazy, right? How can charging someone over $30k for a guitar be a reward?

Well, think about who is likely to buy this guitar. It's not one of those 'showy' guitars with the backs covered in inlays or the like. So pure Martin/guitar collectors are probably not the intended target. That's backed up by things like the non-adjustable truss rod and use of hide glue throughout. Those things aren't all that important to collectors who don't play.

No, this is definately a player's guitar all right. But what kind of player?

Well, the obvious answer is a player who has $30k to spare. But it's actually more specific even than that. This is a pure pose guitar. It's got to be targetted at professionals (pro musicians or not) who want to be able to sit down with other musicians and say 'Yeah, your guitar is nice, but *mine* is $30k nice it has X and Y and Z features'. Ok not necessarily as directly at that but you get the sentiment.

Now the interesting thing here is that we have an example of how branding has not so much allowed them to charge that price for 'a guitar'. No, branding has allowed them to have the money in the bank to be able to design, build and market a product which will probably only sell to a tiny fraction of a fraction of the guitar-buying market. Nobody bought that as just a guitar, they bought the mythos and kudos which is attached to it.

Think of it like Volkswagon. They make mostly affordable cars which sell well and have a good reputation. They also make the $1.5m Veyron. It's the sales of all those little cars and the reputation and branding they create which allows VW to make the Veyron and be confident to sell it.

Remember, every new product anyone releases to market is an upfront financial risk as well as a potential profit.

Anyway - does all this mean I'll be buying one.

Err..

no.

I'd like to know if Charlie has the balls to go up to Chris Martin and say to him what he said here.   I know that I would say anything and everything to anyone's face that I've said here including Charlie.

[QUOTE=charliewood] I think that the saddest part of this CFM Authetic campaign isnt that the guitars are sub par to the standard they claim to adhere, nor them being so outrageously priced,
but rather that this a direct attempt to take a swipe out of the custom builder market..
(as Im sure they couldnt help but notice the success of makers like Dudelbostel(-2 pts spelling?) and other Martin replicantuers.)
Its not enough that they (C.F.M) make ghastly amounts of money already - as with all corporations they want ALL the money to be made!
Thats the failure of the corporate system wthin the free market enterprise system, IMO... while it has enabled anyone to make a successful venture with only a dollar and a dream, sadly it inevitably leads to monopoly.
What is it when super sickeningly rich isnt enough, addiction to power..?
Its something our forefathers could never have imagined, I doubt - the world having been so different then.
Anyway thats the way I see it - I just dont see any instance in which someone could reasonably ask over 30k for a guitar, lest it be made of gold.
Cheers
Charlie[/QUOTE]


Actually I am quite sure the forefathers DID imagine this.

People allowed to control their own destiny, living by their merits and being rewarded by the market for good ideas and hard work -- yeah, I think that was precisely the point.

No caste system, no longer subjects of a supreme monarchy (social contract and all of that).

The great thing about our system is ... if you think Martin is a terrible company... don't buy one.

Two words for you... "Atlas Shrugged"

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Oh there he goes again....

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Im happy to be the whipping boy for you in the current session of "Rip on that OLFer"
I had typed up a huge response but my beliefs on what our current corporate models have truly become isnt really OLF material..
so I will refrain..
Im not going to bother defending myself or my comments, however misconstrued, and elaborated into "sour grapes" as it were.. except to say,,
there wasnt any malice in what I said,
Oh and I wasnt telling anyone what they could or couldnt do either.
If anyone wants to make a super mega corp - (TurnerCorp?)go ahead...
If they want to fund the arts with thier massive overinflated earnings, go ahead too - likewise I dont really care,
and I dont have anything against Martin...
I am entitled to my opinions - however "uninformed" or "stupid" they might be considered... however do respond to what I say and dont inject hidden meanings, and malicious inflection to what I say!
Cheers
Charlie

Whats wrong with massive over inflated earnings?  Lots of guys in bad  Hawaiian shirts really want/need these expensive guitars.

_________________
Tom Krebs

Martin has ended their Sigma guitar line. However, they were solid top and it seems laminate/double sides are becoming popular . I imagine the new flood of Chinese imports were there downfall, but they must have made money and been a seller or they wouldn't have been produced for 37 years. I would think that the "Sigma by Martin" branding payed off in marketing the guitars and eventually led to sales of true Martins as first buyers moved on to better guitars.      

_________________
Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

ToddStock
You could very well be right, and probably are - however I think where this went off track was that,
the launch of this line reminded me of something a corporate guitar line like Fender or Gibson (might) do...
Then my rant was more directed to corporate giants and the constant reduction in quality/rise in price we all suffer in virtually every product that exists.. and I shouldnt have aimed it at Martin directly -
your right I dont know enough about the company to comment.... my mistake.
Thanks for putting it that way - I can really appreciate that sort of response - as opposed to direct attack.
However, I think that as the resources dwindle - we should be moving back towards a community based manufacture model... and a build one/plant 5 ideology.
I know for every guitar I build I will be planting a certain amount of trees to ensure there is a future for
those who come after, and wish to build,,,
Cheers
Charlie

"direct attack"...

Charlie, that's what I saw red about, too, but it was your own uninformed direct attack at a company that is not here to defend itself that I objected to. If you'd hold yourself up to the same standards you want from others, you'd mellow out a bit.

I'd suggest that in general we not rag on those about whom we know little, and that we not attempt to over-politicize the music industry. I've been going to NAMM shows since 1972, and have gotten to know a lot of the top dogs in the guitar business, and I can tell you this...they all love guitars, and they'd all make a hell of a lot more dough in some other industry. Even the guys I don't particularly like in the biz do love guitars.   Most are very supportive of the entire industry, many are very appreciative of hand made guitars, and all are concerned about the waste of the resources we all depend upon to build instruments.

I've had the good fortune to moderate two industry breakfast panels at NAMM shows for Acoustic Guitar Magazine. The first was a group of major execs from the big companies, the second was representatives from boutique makers.   Both of those events were summarized in the magazine in feature articles.   I can honestly say that while everyone was concerned about money, all saw the solution as encouraging more people to play guitar, and that guitar playing was a societally healthy recreation. These, for the most part, are a very passionate group of CEO's who just love guitar.

Please don't knock 'em 'til you've met them.

And if it weren't for these folks populating the world with affordable guitars, none of us would likely have customers buying up the ladder to our products.

Rick Turner, 3 Martin owner who'd like a 4th...
1929 Style 1 soprano uke (date approximate)
1919 00-18
1962 D-28
2008 D-18A?

When I see a vintage or remake or a reissue or whatever as a player and a hack builder I kinda shake my head. After I give it a real good shake I think...you know if Martin, Gibson or whoever make them and they sell...someone did their marketing homework and good on them.

I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for the CF Martin company. They designed and build a model of guitar so many of us start out copying as our first. (O, OO, OM, Dumnaught, whatever). Also they have given so much back to the luthier community through organizations like ASIA which Martin's Dick Boak was instrumental getting off the ground and continues to support.

So often I have picked up a Martin and wanted to hate it. More often than not -- it's a really nice playing and sounding guitar. Darn those guys

It certainly seems like Martin is a great company, and I understand what
Rick is saying about the music industry altogether. I'm sure there are
many industries where those involved care sincerely about their products.
But I certainly agree with Charlie as far as the corporate model is
concerned. The founding fathers certainly did NOT foresee multinational
corporations with more rights than individuals, controlling our press and
means of communication. If we don't reign in corporate power in some
way, I fear we're doomed.

This has nothing to do with Martin or guitars; just my rant before bed

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

If nothing else I always find it difficult to argue with success - Martin has stood the test of time and their instruments are nothing short of iconic in our culture.

Martin's current run of ads include the lyrics and the circumstances in which many of the tunes that we loved or that represented the issues of the day were written.  They are reminding us that they made these instruments and that the people who played them in some cases made history.

Early on I bought parts from Martin's Guitar Makers Connection and I was always amazed at how someone on the other end of the phone would run around looking for what I wanted and then indeed send it to me.  I remember thinking to myself that they are NOT making any money on this support of the hand builder like me.  But they do it anyway and I am grateful that they do.

Neil Young has a tune "This Old Guitar" - a favorite of mine to listen to when I am building.  His point in the tune is that we never really can "own" a superb guitar but we can be fortunate enough to have it in our lives for a while.  What does this have to do with the Martin Authentic series?  Nothing, sorry I digressed..........