Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm not sure why folks are taking a glass-half-empty tac on this. What we should be doing is thanking them for producing something that is over-priced and not built perhaps as well as it should be for the money. Doesn't that give the handmade builder a leg up? I know it's not a great idea to compare your guitars with a factory-made guitar to a customer, but if they're doing their homework they will quickly see the advantage of the hand-builder.

But to be fair, Martin Guitars has never claimed to build every single guitar to the best of their ability, they build to an average, or a curve as I think Rick or someone mentioned. Who is to say that what they are building isn't every bit as good sounding as what came off their assembly line back in the 30's? Not every guitar they produced was a treasure right away...it took decades of playing them to give them the tone that so many prize today. In fifty years, the A series could sound just as good, and folks will be extolling their virtues as well. And all those guitars so many folks are making today that are really super lightly built? They might not even survive the next fifty years. Who knows? Only time can tell. So for us to sit in judgment right now may be a bit premature.
Give them a break...if anyone has a right to charge a ton for their product, Martin has earned that right. And face it, if someone will pay the price for it, it's worth it to them, right?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

If you get down into the "normal" models like ordinary D-18s, D-28s, OMs, etc. I doubt that many "hand builders" can match the cost/benefit ratio hit by Martin.   Once again, remember that most of us cannot sell our guitars at the kind of wholesale price normal for the music industry and make a dime.   Martin can and does; good for them. And as Don says, we should be thanking them, especially if we think we can do better for less money...which I kind of doubt. Take the issue of Brazilian out of this whole thing, and Martin is a formidable competitor for anyone making Martin-like instruments.

[QUOTE=Rick Turner]Take the issue of Brazilian out of this whole thing, and Martin is a formidable competitor for anyone making Martin-like instruments. [/QUOTE]

You said it... We all copy them, and claim to make them custom for individuals, and even if we don't say it, most hand builders feel they can make them better...but how much better, and at what cost? I'm guessing most of us can't compete on a quality/price/value scale with them.

Oh, and there's one other thing we can't do that they can... we can't put the name "C.F.Martin" on our guitars.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Good for them.

Personally, I don't like Martin guitars. When I first decided I could afford a higher end guitar (still didn't know about hand builders in 1990) I went to every guitar store in the Vancouver and surrounding areas. I spent 2 months looking for "the perfect guitar". I had $2500 to spend and from what everyone else told me, I should be looking for a Martin guitar because they were the best I could do for that kind of money. Well, I bet I played a good 30 or so Martin's along with a bunch of guilds, a couple of Larrivee's and a couple of Gibson's. Honestly I couldn't hear the difference between these guitars and a couple of the "lower end" guitars that I first played.

After all the looking and playing, I decided on a low end model Takamine because it sounded much better to me than any of those Martins, Guilds, Larrivee's etc.... and the price was $1900 less.

So yes, good for them that they have their market. Obviously in the guitar world, loyalty matters and the Martin guitar company have a lot of loyal customers.

But the bang for the buck IMO isn't there. Knowing that I could spend $6000-$10000 and get some of the better known custom builders to build me my dream guitar that WILL sound better than any Martin (Again IMO) just seems like a better investment.

To each their own.

I agree with you Rick and Don. They have crafted their marketing and brand very very well (those pre-war's certainly helped I'm sure) and it's paying off for them.

BUT.....for the sound to money spent, my ears could never justify buying one of these Authentic series Martin's or any Martin for that matter. I just don't appreciate the sound I've heard from them.

Yes well all owe them a debt of gratitude for cutting much of the ground for all of us to be able to make any guitar which might sound as good or better.

Thanks, Martin Guitars for all you've done for the industry.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[quote=Rick Turner]What a totally stupid post, Charlie... Or it was a poor attempt at humor... [/quote]

Did you really say that Rick?

This is a good example of the belittling that we've been mentioning lately.

Of course your entitled to your opinion of what you read here just as much as I am but come on...........I know your classifying it by asking a question at the end but this is belittling someone else for giving their opinion, founded or not. There's probably a couple of nicer ways to have made your point, but maybe you just don't care.

Anyway, here's an excerpt from the OLF code of conduct written by the owner's, just as a refresher

[quote=LanceK]Be neighborly. The OLF is an inclusive community one in which members show each other mutual respect at all times. This goes for members of all experience levels. New members should respect the skill and experience of those with many years in the craft, and senior members should try to be patient with new members. We want the community to enjoy a harmonious exchange based on mutual respect. Disagreements should always be framed to challenge ideas, not their authors and they should be conducted in a professional and productive manner.[/quote]

Was this professional and productive?

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod, I think that what Charlie said in his rant was as belittling and insulting a statement as I've seen here.   Just because Chris Martin is not an OLF poster does not mean that I think it's OK to take such tacky and cheap shots at his company or the guitars they build.

I'll say it again...the D-18A that I played at the Martin factory in 2006 was as good a D-18 (or any mahogany dread) as I've ever played, and I've been playing them and fixing them for 44 years now. The fit and finish were just beautiful, the feel was great, and the sound was something to put fear into the heart of any luthier here...and set the benchmark just a bit higher for future work.   If you make dreadnoughts, then you should at least check out what Martin, the company that invented them, is doing.

Don't approve of Rick's tone and word choice (as usual), but I do agree with his main point.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Martin offering the D-28A at whatever price they can get for it. They're not after anybody's market. To my knowledge, they've never gone after any of the many Martin replicators for having "stolen" their designs. Whether or not they would have a good court case if they tried, I don't know. But the Martin company has done more than any other to advance the craft of guitarmaking and to establish and build the voracious guitar market that we all benefit from.

Andrew

Well said Rick.
Without Martin where would we be today. They should be praise for such
an outstanding family business. There company IS the acoustic guitar.
We small time luthier should be proud to see the success of Martin.
Without it the successful century plus of the acoustic guitar just wouldn't
have existed. CF Martin a Bob Taylor have done plenty for our craft and
we should all be grateful for their innovations and success. All of us copy
from their successes.

We as small time builders will never compete with Gibson, Martin Taylor
etc. We need to make our own mark as small luthiers with handcrafted
guitars. Think outside the box and do something different if you can to
make someone say....

Hey... I want a custom Lazy Dog, or a Custom Renaissance, or a custom
whatever instead of a factory Martin.   Either way the customer should get
a great guitar.

My clients love sifting through the wood pile and picking out their own
zoot. The love photos of the build in process. They love the personal
attention and treatments. But that is what they are looking for.

THE BEST COMPLIMENT I EVER GOT for one of my guitar was last week.
When we were having horrible fires here and thousands were homeless,
one of my former customers said when the evacuated, the 1st thing his
wife grabbed besides the kids and the dog, was the custom guitar I made
for her. To her is was priceless and not replacable. She said if was a
Martin I could just go buy another one.

It is that feeling we need in our clients.

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

Boy do I need the edit button...sorry for the typos

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Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

[quote=Rick Turner]Rod, I think that what Charlie said in his rant was as belittling and insulting a statement as I've seen here.   Just because Chris Martin is not an OLF poster does not mean that I think it's OK to take such tacky and cheap shots at his company or the guitars they build.[/quote]

Every time my computer crashes I curse Microsoft. I've never met Bill Gates, I hear he's a really nice guy too. But sometimes us lowlife's get the short end of the stick and a little venting is ok.

Maybe what Charlie said could be seen as belittling but it was to a major US corporation that doesn't give two rips about Charlie, who he is, what his needs are or what kind of guitar he plays (as long as it's a Martin). CFM has done a great job of getting their guitars in the hands of those who will make them lots of money. Just take a good look at the Artist and limited edition series, Paul Simon, 4 Eric Clapton models, 2 Johnny Cash models, Woodie Guthrie, Andy Griffith (poor Matlock) to name but a few. They certainly cover a large range of musical genre. You think all of these people had a hand in the design of the guitar now available to the public? I don't know but I kind of doubt it.

Yes, CFM guitar company has done a great job of marketing and promoting their product. They are most likely the largest producers of acoustic guitars in the US and at the end of the day what do they really care about? $$$$$, that's why anyone goes into business right. They're primary directive is not to save the world, although some good will might make them look better, it's not there bottom line goal.

Charlie's rant was nameless (to the degree that the company is named after a man, but the man doesn't make all the decisions around there I'm sure, that's what board members are for) but your wasn't, that's my beef.

I can certainly respect the fact that the guitar you played at the factory sounded as good as any mahogany dred you've played, but it really amazes me that anyone here who have been professionally building for some time (yourself included) should be afraid of the D-18A or the D-28A. These guitars are for the Martin lovers of the world of which I'm sure there are plenty, probably more so than any other one guitar company out there. But the bottom line is, companies like H&D, Taylor, Larrivee, Froggy Bottom etc. are the ones which are in competition with Martin. No one here has to worry that Martin is going to steal a customer from them. If the small boutique builder has branded himself well and their guitars speak for themselves, they don't have to worry about "the big boys" because they are in a market which is looking past the factory guitar, even the "high end" factory guitars. Not everyone wants a Martin.

Competition is good for any market, it always allows the cream to rise to the top. Sometimes though the cream can look better to some folks than it does to others, and it doesn't all ways taste the same to everyone either.

Martin has been the standard for well over a century, no one is denying that, but the times, they are a changing, that is pretty obvious.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Andy,
That is a great story (except for the fire part) and a tribute to custom builders like yourself.
chris

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

Charlie, many of us value your opinion, even if we don't agree with it all the time. Very few people agree with my opinions, but that's ok.    No one's opinion is stupid, though, just different. No one's opinion is stupid, that's in the rules.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

No one's opinion is stupid, that's in the rules

There's a quote for the books   I may use that as my tag line....



MUST we stick up for others? Didn't this just cause a bunch of needless trouble, oh, a couple days ago? Do we never learn?

If someone's not happy with another's response, let -them-, or a -moderator-, respond to it.

Please.

Clearly there are some of you don't know anyone at Martin nor have you talked to them about guitars, and those of you screaming "capitalist pigs" under your breath also don't know diddly about money and the music industry. It must feel so good to have such an easy target for your feelings of inadequacy.

I know first hand that all the management and sales level people at Martin to whom I have talked (probably twenty of them over the years) care as passionately about guitars as all of us here. Most play, and pretty decently, too, and they are major supporters of music and guitar education, charitable causes, and music festivals.   Quite a few Martin workers are second or even third generation guitar makers.   I've had breakfasts, lunches, and dinners with Chris, Dick Boak, Tim Teel, and a number of other Martin folks, and we always talk guitars, music, and about the health of the entire music industry. These folks are no less passionate about what they do than any of us here.   They just happen to run one of the largest two acoustic guitar factories in the US.

And what's wrong with caring about money? Without it any of us who are pros (only about 30% here, from what I'm told) would not be able to continue making guitars. So at the end of the day, money is one of the things that we do need to look at.

But the way Martin is being portrayed here is as though they were the robber barons of the guitar business. And it must feel so good to hold oneself so morally superior to all that, right?   Come on now, grow up, guys. Guitar making is a business, and Martin is very good at it.

If any of you make guitars that are so, so superior, then what's the problem? Sell 'em, make dough, and shut up and be happy!

You assume to much Rick.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

Rod, I'd like to know what I've assumed that isn't correct. Could you comment on that please?

Wow....in this thread you could replace every "Martin" with "Gibson"
and every "D18 D28" with "Les Paul" and every "pre-war" with "1950s"
then...



...then replace every "Authentic" with "Historic" and it would be the
same discussion.  Except in the case of Gibson Les Paul Historics
it has been going on for almost 20 years now.

I have to chuckle reading this thread.

As Rick says - this goes right back to what we were discussing in the marketing and branding thread.

Now, I think perhaps what it's worth realising about this particular situation is that it's not *just* about leveraging brand loyalty. It's about rewarding it too.

I know, I know: I've gone crazy, right? How can charging someone over $30k for a guitar be a reward?

Well, think about who is likely to buy this guitar. It's not one of those 'showy' guitars with the backs covered in inlays or the like. So pure Martin/guitar collectors are probably not the intended target. That's backed up by things like the non-adjustable truss rod and use of hide glue throughout. Those things aren't all that important to collectors who don't play.

No, this is definately a player's guitar all right. But what kind of player?

Well, the obvious answer is a player who has $30k to spare. But it's actually more specific even than that. This is a pure pose guitar. It's got to be targetted at professionals (pro musicians or not) who want to be able to sit down with other musicians and say 'Yeah, your guitar is nice, but *mine* is $30k nice it has X and Y and Z features'. Ok not necessarily as directly at that but you get the sentiment.

Now the interesting thing here is that we have an example of how branding has not so much allowed them to charge that price for 'a guitar'. No, branding has allowed them to have the money in the bank to be able to design, build and market a product which will probably only sell to a tiny fraction of a fraction of the guitar-buying market. Nobody bought that as just a guitar, they bought the mythos and kudos which is attached to it.

Think of it like Volkswagon. They make mostly affordable cars which sell well and have a good reputation. They also make the $1.5m Veyron. It's the sales of all those little cars and the reputation and branding they create which allows VW to make the Veyron and be confident to sell it.

Remember, every new product anyone releases to market is an upfront financial risk as well as a potential profit.

Anyway - does all this mean I'll be buying one.

Err..

no.

I'd like to know if Charlie has the balls to go up to Chris Martin and say to him what he said here.   I know that I would say anything and everything to anyone's face that I've said here including Charlie.

[QUOTE=charliewood] I think that the saddest part of this CFM Authetic campaign isnt that the guitars are sub par to the standard they claim to adhere, nor them being so outrageously priced,
but rather that this a direct attempt to take a swipe out of the custom builder market..
(as Im sure they couldnt help but notice the success of makers like Dudelbostel(-2 pts spelling?) and other Martin replicantuers.)
Its not enough that they (C.F.M) make ghastly amounts of money already - as with all corporations they want ALL the money to be made!
Thats the failure of the corporate system wthin the free market enterprise system, IMO... while it has enabled anyone to make a successful venture with only a dollar and a dream, sadly it inevitably leads to monopoly.
What is it when super sickeningly rich isnt enough, addiction to power..?
Its something our forefathers could never have imagined, I doubt - the world having been so different then.
Anyway thats the way I see it - I just dont see any instance in which someone could reasonably ask over 30k for a guitar, lest it be made of gold.
Cheers
Charlie[/QUOTE]


Actually I am quite sure the forefathers DID imagine this.

People allowed to control their own destiny, living by their merits and being rewarded by the market for good ideas and hard work -- yeah, I think that was precisely the point.

No caste system, no longer subjects of a supreme monarchy (social contract and all of that).

The great thing about our system is ... if you think Martin is a terrible company... don't buy one.

Two words for you... "Atlas Shrugged"

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Oh there he goes again....

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Im happy to be the whipping boy for you in the current session of "Rip on that OLFer"
I had typed up a huge response but my beliefs on what our current corporate models have truly become isnt really OLF material..
so I will refrain..
Im not going to bother defending myself or my comments, however misconstrued, and elaborated into "sour grapes" as it were.. except to say,,
there wasnt any malice in what I said,
Oh and I wasnt telling anyone what they could or couldnt do either.
If anyone wants to make a super mega corp - (TurnerCorp?)go ahead...
If they want to fund the arts with thier massive overinflated earnings, go ahead too - likewise I dont really care,
and I dont have anything against Martin...
I am entitled to my opinions - however "uninformed" or "stupid" they might be considered... however do respond to what I say and dont inject hidden meanings, and malicious inflection to what I say!
Cheers
Charlie

Whats wrong with massive over inflated earnings?  Lots of guys in bad  Hawaiian shirts really want/need these expensive guitars.

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Tom Krebs

Martin has ended their Sigma guitar line. However, they were solid top and it seems laminate/double sides are becoming popular . I imagine the new flood of Chinese imports were there downfall, but they must have made money and been a seller or they wouldn't have been produced for 37 years. I would think that the "Sigma by Martin" branding payed off in marketing the guitars and eventually led to sales of true Martins as first buyers moved on to better guitars.      

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA