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I’ve been installing frets after gluing the fingerboard to the neck, because I learned lutherie by watching YouTube and reading in forums and that’s what everyone else seems to be doing.

What would happen if one were to install frets before gluing the fingerboard to the neck?

I imagine the fingerboard would probably bow, but wouldn’t it straighten back out when clamped to the neck for gluing?

I’m sure there’s a good reason I’m not seeing anyone do this beforehand, I just haven’t learned why, yet.

It can be done of course, Mario Proulx for example does it.
http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/build11.htm
I did a few of my first builds like that, and forward bowed the FB (clamp and blocks on the bench) after fretting to reduce the back bow before gluing.
I found it better myself to glue the unfretted board on and level it after finishing, on the guitar, before fretting.
I'm sure others will pitch in.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Thomas and everyone else Merry Christmas

Thomas you have been doing it correctly and there are distinct advantages to how you learned to do it fretting with the board on the neck, neck on the guitar. It's also how most pro luthiers who make our livings fret. Fender style necks we fret off the guitar but the board is still on the neck if there is a board at all.

Mario is a friend and an exception and there is much more to how he frets the board prior to installing the board on the neck that needs to be both considered and mentioned. I'm speaking "process controls...." He does not just fret the board off the guitar. His process is repetitive, strictly controlled and he uses his experience with the same materials and fret wire to dial in results. His method works well for him but if you know Mario Mario is a top shelf luthier one of the best and very intolerant of defects.

It's been over ten years since I saw his video but he does some tricks that help him get great results such as weighting the board to create compression after the frets are installed. He also always for the most part uses the same materials, fret wire, etc. He's also going to great lengths to build the body (not shown) to avoid the body joint hump which I have a toot for called flattening the upper bought.

What Mario can't do with this one method that he uses on new builds is refret an existing guitar or other existing instruments that have the board attached. And that's huge.... Refrets full or partial are important to learn how to do and I don't know how anyone can call themselves a luthier if they don't know how to refret a guitar. It's a question of servicing what we create and having the chops to service what we create. Frets wear out and I have clients who wear out stainless frets in only several years time....

Many of us wait to sell our guitars until we can do all that what we sold to others may require someday to support our creations and products. That was the path I took and consider it irresponsible to sell anything that I can't fully support for anything it may need. Different strokes...

So here are the advantages of learning to fret the guitar with the board on the neck, neck on the guitar. This has also been talked bout dozens of times including several times just last year so lots of comments on the OLF, usually the same ones over and over and over.... in the archives.

When you fret the board on the neck, neck on the guitar:

1) You have learned how to refret a guitar, bass, mando and other stringed instruments that use frets - it's the same process for the most part for all of them and you now know how to do it. Yay!

2) Any body joint hump that gets created you have the opportunity to mill it away completely. You have to live with a body joint hump if the builder leaves it there which can greatly negatively impact playability forever more if one develops, you did not flatten the upper bout correctly.

3) You can precision shape the board and you should too for relief and for acoustic instruments and some electrics with fall-away. Relief more on the bass side and less on the treble side is highly desirable and a huge improvement in playability. Fall-away especially for heavy handed bluegrass players with a pick is pretty much essential too. The last thing you want for any kind of player is a "ski ramp" that often develops at the end of the neck especially on Fender style bold-on necks.

4) Better playability and yep I said that. A board that has had relief properly milled into it and fall-away added after the 12th plays better. You can dig in harder and play more expressively with no buzzing and there are no compromises such as having to have too much relief on one side to get required relief on the other side. Fretting the neck and board on the guitar gives you complete control over the shape of the fret plane which is the ultimate goal of fretting and building as well.

You can shape the board on the neck, neck on the guitar with "levelness" not being the goal but a starting point before you further shape the fret plane for optimal playability. Many here believe that the goal is starting with a level board. It's not. The goal is shaping the board for optimal playability.

What is the advantage of better playability? Only the single most requested by guitar players thing of all time - lower action is possible, buzz, rattle free lower action.

5) Before I apprenticed as a repair guy I was a builder. I found that there was fear in working on a finished instrument mostly because it had not been my experience. When I did finally assembly of my guitars I had not developed the chops or methods to work on a brand new, completed, all shiny instrument without a high pucker factor.... Once I learned to fret anything that fear went away completely (and was replaced with a respect but no fear) and I had a host of chops that included using shields, leather, best practices etc. that put me in a position to build a better instrument AND now do repair work too. I can't tell you how much it was appreciated when as Ross Perot once opined that great big sucking sound that was my money being sucked up by Athens, OH all of a sudden reversed. All of a sudden people were paying me $500 or so to refret an instrument and it would take me about 6 hours to do.

With all this said fretting on the instrument gives you many more options and more control over the outcome. It builds a better instrument with the exceptions of those in the trade who have process controls and build largely the same things over and over they can do great fret work too. But they can't refret an existing instrument when the board is already installed on the neck nor can they replace the cowboy chord frets that a ham handed client wears out every five years or so with their method.

Most of all a well crafted fret plane nearly plays itself. Uber low action is possible with a level of precision where the strings, natural straight edges are suspended over a fret plane that was built with the features that counter the maladies created by the physics of how a string vibrates. Or, in other words a well build fret plane is a better playing instrument.

The instrument with a superior fret plane will also play noticeably more in tune as string stretch from higher action is minimized.

I’m sure you could learn to do it either way, and that there are advantages and disadvantages to either method. Currently, I fret after the neck is glued on, and I profile the FB after the neck is on as well.

I’m considering switching tactics to fretting before the board is attached. I spent years hammering a dozen guitars a day five days a week, then went to doing no fretting at all for a bunch of years, to now doing fretting a couple of times a month. It ain’t like riding a bike.

Now I’m contemplating getting that very expensive and very fancy compound radius fret press doodad and fretting off the guitar. Seems like you should be able to get a perfect fret install that way, and then transfer that onto the instrument.

Likely just another way to get things done…

Thanks for the input.

as a builder I now do all my fretting after the guitar is done. That way I can true the fretboard to the guitar , fret level and polish this gives me the best fret job possible.
One less variable in the process

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I agree with John Hall. I've never been able to get all the bumps and dips out of a pre-fretted board.

If you go this way what glue are you thinking? How long to clamp up?


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I do it wrong. I fret it prior, followings Harry Fleishman’s fretting order (published by the GAL). The board stays pretty flat that way. When I glue up I clamp the fretboard neck assembly with a very stiff and flat strong back tand leave it clamped 24 hrs or so. then I level and all the other stuff at the end. Doesn’t usually take much leveling.
I do it this way because I don’t like fretting over the sound board.
Works well for me, but no one else should do this. You’ll bring the wrath of the internet down on your head as it doesn’t work for others, apparently it’s just me and Harry.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

So much gymnastics for me with fretting over the soundboard with the Jaws. I’m with you, Jim, it’s a pain!

Has me thinking for sure.


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You know, using a fretting hammer is not horrible for you or the guitar if you develop some skill and self control. There are people with impressive gravitas in this endeavor (I’m definitely not talking about myself) who only use a fretting hammer for this task, with no other doodads, and yet the world continues to spin. Over the body, a fret buck works great for me. I’m glad I have one.

If you love Jaws, that’s cool, too. I’m big tent about how to get things done. But it’s not the only good way to fret a guitar.

Anything that eliminates variables gets my vote.

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formerly known around here as burbank
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

TB, overnight. I think I use a lot less glue than many people. Just a super thin tacky layer. If the fingerboard were to backbow, I would consider it a good thing, as that would put your in the forward forcing position of the two way rod, maximizing lifespan of the truss rod.

FWIW, I use an auto body acrylic yellow headed hammer with a crown shaped into it. When doing the extension I use a ziplock bag with birdshot wrapped in duct tape held in by hand. No need for a complicated device…

Same. Several years ago I saw that greenfield video where they were using the kids sponge paint dobber to thin the glue line. It works so good. Occasionally I’ll get one of the cutting board specialists on Instagram telling me the glue line will never hold and that heaps of squeeze out tells you you’ve done it right.


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I’ve put in frets with the hammer, pressed into just the board (ala Mario), pressed in with the board on the neck but not attached to the guitar and with the guitar fully assembled. They all work with varying degrees of leveling required.

After all of that, for the rest of my work on new builds or refrets I fret them on the completed guitar using the Jaws and Andy Birko’s cauls. It does take some patience but I feel it gives me the very best final result and I usually don’t need to do much leveling either.

If one is building repeatable guitar shapes AND you can control your process dimensionally to a good enough degree then I could see where putting the frets in the board by itself might be a timesaver. Wouldn’t hurt to test it out.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I have a real affinity for building in mostly complete sub-assemblies. I guess I just like knowing that if I have a major screw up, I'm throwing away just the fingerboard and not a neck. So my fingerboards are around 98% complete before getting glued to a 90% complete neck shaft. It seems to work fine for me.

Most of my guitars have had an elevated fingerboard extension that's not glued to the top.

My fingerboard is inlaid, fretted and bound, fret ends shaped and polished before gluing to the shaft. Any fret work remaining after gluing to the shaft is usually very minor and usually takes less than 30 min to make any adjustments.

They are truly removable bolt on bolt off necks w/o the fingerboard extension glued down.

I see some advantages to fretting after the neck is attached to a whole guitar but also a lot of advantages working in sub-assemblies.

Instrument making is chock full of compromises and alternative methods.

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

So you sell or gift a guitar that you lovingly crafted to a family member, friend, co-worker or just someone you know infatuated with the idea of having a one of a kind instrument. He/she plays the hell out of it and maybe gigs. 3 - 4 years down the road the frets develop some wear/divots and since wood moves the fret board extension kicks up enough now, maybe some curl at the end of the board develops that low action is not possible and the thing rattles and buzzes when played with fret noise. Fret planes do move over time at times.

If brought to me and if built in a serviceable manner we refret it after carefully leveling the board, then shaping the board, adding the relief that the builder may not have and putting in the right place too. Since that fall-away never was done and there is some settling there is now some kick-up that is preventing decent playability. So we mill that out of the board too and create fall-away.

Then we refret on the guitar, maybe suggest stainless so the steward does not have to pay my condo fee for two months in only several more years and the client goes on their way happy as a clam AND with lower action which they desired than the instrument ever had even on the day it was delivered.

I refused to sell a single Heshtone guitar until I could provide service for anything that could ever go wrong with them. I was so concerned about being able to service my creations and being responsible about my approach to supporting my wares that I actually apprenticed primarily for this one reason to learn neck resets. Along the way I also learned to fret on the instrument and that opened the door for me to do repair work with few limitations at that time.

When I was a beginner I fretted the board off the guitar and that often resulted in the dreaded 14th fret body hump... But because acoustics have higher action the errors in my fret planes were not apparent except... except unless someone wanted very low action and then the errors were limiting factors AND in play.

If one of your's comes back with fret wear 50% through a fret or two what are you going do? Even replacing the cowboy chord frets and doing a partial you are still working on a finished instrument. If your customers are better players they may need a full refret and they may also wish to address the issue of how quickly they personally wear out frets and want a complete refret with stainless and for those of us who still have some EVO.

You can send them to me but there is no guarantee that I will take it in. We turn away most small, hobby builder stuff for reasons that can't be fixed with the budget that the client has such as poor neck angle. And they are known in the industry by pros as being cans of worms at times. No disrespect intended this is not targeted at anyone specifically or even generally just the people who let substandard guitars out into the wild.

So of course different strokes for different folks but for anyone who intended to let guitars into the wild please build them to be serviceable and in my opinion and personal experience I would never have sold a single guitar if I was not capable of refretting it once it comes back in 5 years or so.

With this said those who share my curiosity for learning what you or I don't know and who share a desire to have our work be a statement of who we are as people perhaps a bit demanding with an appreciation for quality you can still build how you wish AND learn to fret on the guitar.

Nothing stops you from getting a beater off Ebay and learning to remove, not pull.... frets with care so you don't chip out the fret slots. Shaping the board Hesh here has written dozens of posts how to do this and ultimately refretting the beater.

Currently many commenting here have never refretted a single guitar on the guitar yet you are making a judgement call what is better for you but from a position of having no experience with one of the choices.

Do this, get the beater and learn to fret on the guitar and then make up your minds which method serves you and let's not forget any intended recipients of your guitars best.

I find fretting to be a fun, additive process where superb results are easily obtainable by a skilled luthier equal to or superior to a PLEK machine. PLEK just does it faster and has a better personality than I do until you have to pay the annual support fee for PLEK support...

If someone comes to you and wants action of 2 1/2/64th" and 3 1/2/64th" at the 12th on a jazz box ES 335 with flat wounds you can say "no problem it will be ready next week if that works for you."

Thanks

I started fretting before gluing a long time ago and wouldn't do it any other way. Most of my boards are bound, I like to press the frets in with an arbor press (but I also give them a tap or two to make sure they are seated). I think I can support the fretboard much better, I've never had a problem with hump or bumps when I glue it on, I can certainly do a better job dressing ends on the upper frets without the body in the way.

FWIW, I build both acoustic and electric guitars, set necks and screw on (Fender style) and do them all the same



ps - I also do the inlay before fretting before gluing but after binding. I leave the binding standing proud of the edge of the fretboard which gives a nice flat surface (binding and center of board) for the little router base.

pps - when I refret I work with what I'm given. A fender screw on neck comes off, a set neck stays on and I futz around trying to support it while I bang away. I do hammer frets on a refret, I do try to have the best possible fretboard before I do it. But on a new guitar I will always fret the board before I glue it on.

Freeman, are you doing anything special at glue up? Epoxy, long clamp time for PVA, etc…


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Not really. I put two small dowels in to the neck and fretboard to index them, obviously you can't use brads thru fret slots. I'll use whatever cauls the particular neck configuration requires (remember I do this with all kinds of necks). Typically I will have shaped the neck but I usually leave the width of the neck just a hair wider than the fretboard, I like to bring the neck to the binding (I do a lot of neck shaping with a cabinet scraper).

I start out with a flat fretboard (lengthwise) but after fretting it frequently has a slight back bow from the compression. This has never failed to flatten out when I do the glue up, there is almost no leveling required. I also have not had issues with humps at the body joint or any other weirdness.

I use AR glue except for a couple of cases where I wanted to use hide (mostly for principal rather than any structural reasons).

The idea of trying to support an oddly shaped piece of wood while I banged frets into it just seems wrong (yes I tried a sand bag). This works for me and I see no reason to go back.

This is great stuff and lots of good points. I think I’m going to have to try it both ways since there are people that like both.

Thomas, I'm not going to belabor this, but here is a thread from a different forum showing the basic steps that I follow when I'm doing a neck.

https://www.tdpri.com/threads/good-neck ... t-12703496

This particular neck is complicated by the fact that the fretboard extension floats above the body. It would be very hard to support that and cushion hammer blows if it was glued onto the neck and the neck onto the body. Like I said this works for everything except refrets.

I'll add one thing that doesn't show in the thread - many people will put a couple of brads thru fret slots to align frets boards to necks while gluing. I do the same thing but I use little wood dowels between frets at both ends of the board, it helps line things up while I'm fitting the board to the neck and when it comes time for the glue up. I've made a little jig with a couple of holes in it that aligns the dowels in both neck and board, there are other ways but the board will want to skate around when you put clamps on.

Also I find the neck holding jig very helpful. I can clamp the assembly to my work bench, move it around to get access to various parts of the neck. I built it with a fixed 16 degree head angle which is my standard but it would be better with an adjustable angle. The nice thing is the top part of the neck which is flat is clamped to the jig which is also flat. I would be less stable if the radiused fretboard was resting on the jig.

I am certainly not as skilled or prolific as many of the builders here but I do it much the same as Freeman with a couple of differences. I press all of the frets in other than the first and either 12 or 14 depending on whether it's a 12 or 14 fretter. I use brads through the fret slots to align and then press in the final two frets once the board has been glued on. I don't do any neck carving until after the board is glued and has dried for at least a few days. I usually use Titebond 1. I used epoxy once but found it a little messy to work with. I'll then bandsaw the waste off of the neck followed by a small block plane etc. and then carve the neck. With archtops and the fingerboard extension, it was easier pressing all of the frets in whether the board was glued first or after. A little different for a flat top. I also have a 2 ton press that will handle the height of pressing the fret in over the neck heel. I don't believe the 1 ton arbor presses have the same clearance. There's many ways to skin a cat and as others have said, once you have a consistent system that works for you, just do it.

Thanks for the info. That’s enough people doing it that way to make me want to try it and see what happens.

I put wooden dowels in the neck and fretboard for alignment so no brad nails needed. It’s pretty easy for me that way. That would enable me to install all of the frets beforehand.