Official Luthiers Forum!

When a luthier pulls out a tape measure get out of there and go somewhere , where they know what they are doing

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Deleted

once the comments are turned off this is a fluff video he has removed all comments so you know that information isn't valid

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

Deleted

man that is sinful LOL

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

I wonder if the training includes a section titled something like "How to have complete confidence in your ignorance for luthiers".

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I've been doing this for longer than he's been alive, so where do I get my 'Super Master Luthier' shingle to hang on the wall ??

You just make it and stick it up and raise your prices. Or get Birkonium or Brad to make it for you…

Is it 'Super' or 'Ultra' that is a higher self-designated add-on to Master Luthier? I found another stash of box tops and want to order the certificate testifying to that next-higher level of expertise.

Dunning Kruger, indeed.

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I believe that would be an Über Master Luthier

Master to the Power of Infinity.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

The full title is "Uber Driver Master Luthier".

You can't just proclaim yourself a Master: you're a Master when the other Masters say you are.

While I agree with the sentiment, this isn’t true of most places. Nothing preventing anyone from making the claim anywhere they want, as the profession is unregulated.

This guy held up several examples to demonstrate his/their professional status. Others on this board have pointed to the exact same criteria to justify their own professional claims. Personally, none of it makes an impression on me: good, bad, or otherwise.

It’s the inter-web folks — get over it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I suspect we have a notable lack of both conclavity and agreement on what might constitute mastery in the context of factory warranty work or in bilking the uninformed seeking preparation for a high-paying job in guitar repair (if such a job even exists).

I will also note that those best qualified to judge mastery of another in this trade are also the least likely to have the time or desire to engage in that task.

_________________
A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

The same discussion came up a few (maybe many?) years ago on a now defunct woodworking board I frequented. A very good cabinet/furniture/ carpenter declared himself a master carpenter. In this case imho a substantiated claim. Weeding through all bs the internet amplifies,with many unsubstantiated attacks showing humanities ass, there were a few nuggets of knowledge worth holding on to. The term now means whatever anyone uses it wants it to be. In I time past in a world where small shops ran by a craftsman who honed there crafts over a lifetime starting as an apprentice working up to a point where they ran the shop and had there own apprentices, those craftsman were the master (insert the appropriate suffix) of the shop. There maybe certain crafts with professional organizations bestow this tittle now and the government now bestows the tittle (think plumbers and electricians). In this sense I at one time I could have claimed, in an obtuse sense shaped by the the changes in the cabinet industry over the centuries, to be a master cabinet maker, owning my own shop with employees I trained, to be a “master” cabinet maker, I was never inclined. In the traditional sense and knowing I have barely begun to climb the learning curve of luthery I will be forever be an apprentice.

Woodie G wrote:
"I will also note that those best qualified to judge mastery of another in this trade are also the least likely to have the time or desire to engage in that task."

As I understand it, in Germany, and maybe other places where the guild system still holds sway, part of being a 'Master' is that you are required to train apprentices. You can't just use them as dumb labor: after a certain length of time they get examined, and if they don't meet the standard for Journeymen you're required to pay some other master to take them in and train them right. This is part of what gives you the right to open a shop. That system has been superseded, at least in part, by a 'voc-tech' school model, in the training program in Mittenwald.

Here in the US, of course, that's seen as a 'restraint of trade'. Plumbers and electricians do need to pass exams, and meet other requirements to get licensed and practice, on public safety grounds, so vestiges of the old ways persist. I can attest, painfully, that it's not a perfect system.

For all it's advantages the apprenticeship model does have faults. In particular, although it ensures that practitioners meet basic standards, it can act as a drag on innovation. We own the presence of the C.F. Martin Co. in the US in part to the founder's disagreements with the local guild over qualifications.

Regardless of what does or does not constitute a Master these days, I think there's a problem with someone referring to themselves as a Master and then posting a video on youtube that contains wrong information about a fundamental aspect of guitar design and function. It implies that whatever he tells you in the video is correct because he is, after all, a Master. I think it's fair to say that the term Master does not apply in this case.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

So, what makes anything right? Are you going to believe your ears or your measurements? When the saddle is in the right place, it’s right! If it doesn’t sound right to you, you’re just going to have to retrain your ears. Who’s more precise, a carpenter? Or a musician? We’re having a sale on notes: 50 cents off!

Flogging a dead horse, and a bit off topic, but germane, IMO:

This situation is—to me—a perfect example of what's so wrong on the internet these days. It seems the incentive to get hits on content that anybody can post has overshadowed the need for accuracy or even decency. We can thank Google for that. In this case, the poster can remove anything they deem a threat to getting hits. Recently Google/Youtube even removed the option of viewers to give a post a thumbs down.

Arrgghh! Internet: I love/hate it.

_________________
formerly known around here as burbank
_________________

http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I actually find this whole thing rather fascinating. I mean how does this even happen? This is so elementary dear Watson that it's like on the first chapter of every guitar building and repair book. How are they an Authorized Martin, Fender Gibson etc... repair shop going on 25 years experience and NOT know about scale length compensation?

That truly blows me away.

I'm not one to think very highly of my work in the first place and realize there are probably some things I might not be doing right or things I'm not aware of and that's why I still come to places like this forum, but that is 101 level stuff that I would assume anyone would know. I mean just ask the next ten guitar players that come in your shop if they have ever heard of compensation and I bet at least 9 will say of course I have and they no nothing of guitar repair.

I also don't like to say things that hurt people but that is truly embarrassing. A tape measure? Good Gawd!

I don’t care what you call yourself when you’re wrong…

I'm not piling on quite so much.

Agree the guy really blew it not mentioning the high E scale distance to the front edge of the saddle is typically something longer than mathematical scale length and low E further out yet.

But in reality I went thru the hassle of seeing what the book writing authorities and respected web builders had to say about it when I was starting out and found little in the way of agreement. From Somogyi to Campiano....I found everything from a scooch to a smidge to a little bit to ?/64's, ?/32's, mm's.......... Hardly a dimension set in stone. I was amazed at the differences. At one time I even wrote them all down in a "spread sheet". When I lay out mine it is somewhere ~1/64 to <1/32 at the high E to somewhere around 1/8 at the low E. I don't even bother to measure, just do it by eye. And intonation has met with approval of some very picky players.

My 'check all measuring sticks against a standard' in my shop is a Starrett 387-24 so I am an accuracy nerd.

Any measuring device in the luth shop showing visible deviation is relegated to other duty. Squares etc are also checked against a Starrett. I remember when I took the leap to accurate measuring -- it was the day I threw up my hands and said I DON'T KNOW WHICH OF MY RULES/STRAIGHT EDGES ARE ACCURATE! They were all different!

But hey, someone comes in with a guitar and scale length or intonation questions and whatever measuring device is handy, even a good quality tape measure can serve for an initial assessment.

The guy in the vid wasn't instructing on building a guitar, only showing how a typical player might look at scale length with tools in the home.

So I'm cutting him some slack on that.

His luth school prices were insane for what looked like a very rudimentary shop environment.

I'll also add that I often cringe seeing what folks use for "precision" measuring devices even here on the OLF.

When I see those $5.99 aluminum yard sticks come out with printed graduations I cringe and they may be even worst than a tape, just saying.

OK, you can pile on me now .

_________________
Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

I seem to recall that when I took the Charles Fox course in 2004 he said to position the high e at scale length with a 1/8” drop back on the saddle. I’ll have to dig out my notes.

I don’t think the guy was using the graduations on the tape measure, rather a pencil line that marked the distance from the nut to the center of the 12th fret. Still pretty crude with that device.

I actually just use a StewMac straightedge butted against the nut, make a pencil mark at the center of 12 and a second at the compensation I want at the center of the saddle and use that for bridge placement. With a 1/8” drop back and a 1/8” width of the saddle intonation has not been a problem.

I have one of “those” Martins and the center of the saddle is right at scale length. The high e a little less.

_________________
It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

That's a very good point about the tape measure but not so much about the actual measurements. But it does explain some of my questions like how could a shop be that big and in business for so long with that ideology. But I totally get it. A year or so ago I started making TikTok videos just for fun and to see what it was all about and it took off and developed a bit of a following. I made one video showing how DIY guitar owners can remove tuner grommets with a screwdriver where the shaft is about the same size as the grommet hole and you insert the shaft in and wiggle it out. I have the proper tool for the job but it was just a way to show others how to do it on the cheap and... OMG did I get hell for that one hahahaha.