Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 12:24 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:50 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 1028
Location: Newland, North Carolina
First name: Dave
Last Name: Ball
Back in the 70's when I attended Charles Fox's Earthworks/GRD school, he was using a phenolic material for fingerboards. The guitar I built there is still in good shape and the fingerboard is fine. I've used Garolite XX phenolic--seems to be the same stuff Charles was using, especially for fretless banjo fingerboards (about as good as it comes for those), but have used it on numerous fretted fingerboards as well. XX is a paper based phenolic. Stinks like crazy when you work it, but it works great. And it's reasonably inexpensive from McMaster Carr. I prefer Maccassar Ebony for guitar fingerboards--I like the yellow streaks, but I think that Garolite is probably very similar to Richlite, and it's a good material. I know at least one guitar that's got nearly 50 years on it with a fingerboard made of it and it's just fine.

I've also used Garolite XX for the backs of internal resonator banjos and peghead overlays. Good stuff as long as you wear a respirator when you're cutting it.

Dave



These users thanked the author ballbanjos for the post (total 2): Durero (Tue Jun 18, 2024 12:29 am) • Chris Pile (Mon Jun 17, 2024 11:57 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:43 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:02 pm
Posts: 50
First name: R.M.
Last Name: Mottola
Status: Professional
The general subject of phenolic composite fretboards came up regularly but infrequently in the American Lutherie Questions Column. There has been some level of interest in these materials for a while. Early adopters included Ned Steinberger, who used such materials in his earliest production instruments.

There are two basic classes of these materials: phenolic impregnated wood, and composites made of phenolic and wood fiber. The product called Rocklite is phenolic impregnated wood. The product called Richlite and the one called Garolite XX are composites made of wood fiber (paper) and phenolic resin.

There are other products of these two generic types, from a variety of manufacturers. The impregnated wood products tend to use laminated strips of thin veneer and are often not that visually attractive for our purposes. The wood fiber and phenolic composites tend to be very similar to each other and tend to look a lot alike if they are black in color. I use the latter material for fretboards only from time to time. The material is generally not considered to be a structural material, and as such most manufacturers do not provide mechanical properties data. I did a deep research literature search at one time and found a paper on an experiment in which this material was used as a structural material. The researchers derived their own mechanical properties data. I verified their results, at least as far as the properties that would be of interest when the material is used for fretboards.

Wood fiber and phenolic composite materials tend to be denser than ebony and about as stiff as hard maple. They are highly resistant to abrasion. This makes for fretboards that hold up very well to fretting, but it also makes the materials really tough on edge tools. I will usually shape fretboards of these materials abrasively as much as possible, and will generally cut fret slots with solid carbide bits in the CNC machine. While on the topic of fret slotting, these materials are much less susceptible to end grain compression than wood is. This means the fret barbs will (mostly) not simply compress into the end grain as they do in wood, but will mostly just wedge the fret slot open. For this reason I'll either grind the barbs off or make the fret slots wide enough to mostly accommodate the barbs. In both cases I'll use glue when fretting.

One last thing. Fretboards made from wood fiber and phenolic composite materials can be glued to the neck using regular wood glue if the gluing surface of the composite is roughed up.

_________________
R.M. Mottola
LiutaioMottola.com

Author of the books Building the Steel String Acoustic Guitar and Mottola's Cyclopedic Dictionary of Lutherie Terms.



These users thanked the author rmmottola for the post (total 5): Durero (Wed Jun 19, 2024 10:56 am) • Pmaj7 (Wed Jun 19, 2024 1:01 am) • ballbanjos (Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:05 pm) • JimWomack (Tue Jun 18, 2024 3:27 pm) • rbuddy (Tue Jun 18, 2024 2:54 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2024 6:14 pm 
Offline
Koa
Koa
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:14 am
Posts: 1028
Location: Newland, North Carolina
First name: Dave
Last Name: Ball
[quote="rmmottola" Wood fiber and phenolic composite materials tend to be denser than ebony and about as stiff as hard maple. They are highly resistant to abrasion. This makes for fretboards that hold up very well to fretting, but it also makes the materials really tough on edge tools. I will usually shape fretboards of these materials abrasively as much as possible, and will generally cut fret slots with solid carbide bits in the CNC machine. While on the topic of fret slotting, these materials are much less susceptible to end grain compression than wood is. This means the fret barbs will (mostly) not simply compress into the end grain as they do in wood, but will mostly just wedge the fret slot open. For this reason I'll either grind the barbs off or make the fret slots wide enough to mostly accommodate the barbs. In both cases I'll use glue when fretting.

One last thing. Fretboards made from wood fiber and phenolic composite materials can be glued to the neck using regular wood glue if the gluing surface of the composite is roughed up.[/quote]

I've made my fret slots a bit wider when I use Garolite. I've not used glue, but haven't had any problems. As you mention, roughing up the glue side of the Garolite material is all it takes to make a titebond glue joint work fine.

Another sidenote here--when you radius the top of Garolite, the thin layers of paper that make up the phenolic material create a faint but noticeable grain pattern that looks a lot like really fine grained ebony. Kinda cool.

And yet another sidenote--Years ago, Stelling banjos used "Ebonite" fingerboards and there were problems later on in the lives of some of these banjos with fingerboard heating up in the sun/bending the neck kinds of issues. I've never experienced that personally, but I can see how a difference in expansion/contraction between materials could be an issue.

Dave


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 6:27 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:27 pm
Posts: 380
First name: john
Last Name: shelton
City: Alsea
State: Oregon
Zip/Postal Code: 97324
Country: usa
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
I received the two Royal Blackwood fingerboards that Michaeldc recommended and am delighted. I immediately ordered four more (I would have bought more but at 82 I don't know how many more guitars I'm going to build). We build flamenco and classic guitars exclusively so weight is very important to us and these are perfect. Thank you Michaeldc!



These users thanked the author jshelton for the post: Michaeldc (Sat Jun 22, 2024 3:50 am)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2024 9:38 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:15 pm
Posts: 7378
First name: Ed
Last Name: Bond
City: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
FWIW I’ve never actually used Richlite for a FB. But was given a sample board at a show, and it is rubbery, dull, and lifeless. It has no taptone whatsoever, and feels like a hard eraser…



These users thanked the author meddlingfool for the post: Pmaj7 (Sat Jun 22, 2024 11:31 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:07 am 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5968
Having milled Richlite for commercial countertops, I am not a big Fan. Routing it produces a fine greasy feeling dust that clings to everything. Yes, it is tough on blades and bits and will dull even carbide. With the thicker material milling the surface removes the uniform black surface and exposes the fiber layers, which some might find objectionable. For the thin dimensions of a fingerboard this may not be a problem, and if the board comes "slotted" it may save some trouble.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 54 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com