Official Luthiers Forum!

Yeah, same. Paxlovid did a number on me. I do think it’s why I was able to rebound so quickly, as you said, there is a price.


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I don't understand anything about money, and don't give it much attention. I never looked at my paycheck. It went in the bank. Some went in savings Some in the 401k. I didn't have a business, so I could get away with that! I retired a year early, when they wanted me to work 12 hour days 5 days a week. I put in for vacations, and then retirement. Since that was 2019 I didn't have to deal with the plague things at all. I don't watch the news. As far as I can tell it is mostly lies and propaganda, just like the money system. The stuff they do is total nonsense. Spend, spend, spend. I pay no attention to politics, it makes me shake my head in disbelief. Left, right, it makes no difference. Rich, poor? Now that's a different story. It always has been. Now they have better PR than the old tyrants did.
I had to look up Paxlovid, never heard of it. I avoid anything to do with the plague, pokes, tests, whatever. It isn't happening to me. But again, I don't have to deal with compliance for work or anything. I would have just retired then, a few months early, if I needed to comply before June.
The world is a complex place. Much of it is very good. But at least half of it is evil.People do what they think is best. We are all here. Where else can we go? All we can do is help each other as best we can, and stop arguing over stupid things. And don't fear anything. Fear is a spirit from the enemy. It doesn't do you any good at all.
We only see in part. NO one has all the answers.
You have read the quote from Henry Ford, haven't you?

“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”

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Why be normal?

Seems like "content-al drift" might be taking this discussion down a slippery shelf into historically troubled waters.....

Might be? It was there quite early in the thread.

I understand that folks have their opinions about lots of topics, but we are all better off if this forum stays on instrument making and repair, with some benign off topic banter. Because as sure as you are that you are reasonable and right in your views, there are folks on the OLF who think you are off your rocker, and can’t stand to stay silent about their opposing views. Combine that with the natural compulsion of some folks to prove that they are the smartest people on the Internet, and you get a forum of folks who fight all the time about topics that are not directly relevant to why we are here. Sorry for the finger-wag, but we all should exercise self-restraint in this regard. We didn’t in this thread.

I thought that this was very civil. No one raised their voice. I won't say anything anymore because I would much rather talk about instrument making. I don't even read about politics and philosophy. I like that people are different, just like different kinds of food.
I have a LOT of sets made up now after having some wood re-sawn. 3 baroque instruments, 3 Birdseye Panorma's (3 different bracings?) The acoustic Les Paul. A bigger Padauk arch top, 7 string? A classical, that may be for a steel string because it is mahogany? and anther piece of Paduak left that needs wood for a belly and neck.
I still have a cello and 3 violins to finish.
And I have a lot of questions about guitar making, because I don't know anything. But a lot of people here do know.

I don't know about pricing for mill work, but it was $36 for re-sawing, and thicknessing some pieces of Padauk and Birdseye. It seems reasonable, and my saw doesn't even do 4"
stock! It took at least half an hour. 5 cuts, and thicknessing 4 pieces. Busy place. Kind of exciting with all the commotion. 3 guys were teamed up on the planer and thickness planer to change rough boards into finished top and bottom. There were at least 3 carts full of wood.

A guy at one shop I worked at, had a sticker on his toolbox that said; Everyone is someone else's a hole.

I guess.

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Why be normal?

Ken--

My comments were not aimed specifically at you, but they weren't aimed away from you, either. They were aimed at all of us. Trust me, there are people on the OLF with extremely divergent political views (as in: far, far left, and far, far right), and if we start talking about politics, the tendencies I referenced above almost always lead to people to fight, and not about instrument making or repair. If we are going to preserve this forum as a place where people can civilly trade information about instrument making and repair, we would be smart to nip political discussions in the bud. And if I have to be the a-hole that reminds everybody of that responsibility, that's OK.
I will gladly wear that scarlet letter in the name of trying to preserve what makes this forum good.

I understand Don. I don't really understand it, but I do know that it exists.

I don't have anything against anyone, anywhere. Everyone is different. I make violins and arch tops from the inside out. People have said I'm crazy, and dead wrong. I don't care at all. Doesn't bother me. I don't even know why it matters to them. They can do it any way they want! I didn't tell them that they had to do, or think ANYTHING. They can say that I'm wrong, or crazy if it makes them feel better. I don't care. I don't understand it. But I do know that it exists.

When people ask questions here, they ARE asking for opinions. They receive, opinions. They might be based on years of experience, or just something that they read, and repeat as fact. That's where how you perceive the person responding to be, or how the answer seems to line up with what you were thinking. It's called discernment. Everyone has to do that for themselves.

But they ARE opinions, and for the most part, people here respect other opinions. Sometimes there are differing opinions, but they are usually different ways of achieving the same thing. I do everything by hand, but I like following Brad (bcombs510) make ukuleles, with CNC and all sort of tools. I'll never do it, but I see what he is trying to achieve, and think of ways I could do that by hand. I certainly wouldn't think that he is doing it wrong, or ever write down in a forum that he was doing it wrong. He likes CNC, and uses it to his advantage. I did CNC for decades at work, and don't want to do it anymore.

We are different. We have different ideas and goals. I love his work. I have a very hard time getting anything CLOSE to perfection; his look pretty close. It just isn't in me. I can only hope to capture a look, and make something that sounds, and plays good.

That's why I ask questions.

Sorry. I didn't think that I even said anything about politics, except that I don't pay any attention to it.

A Sting song that I love to sing along to when it comes up on my iPod. The second verse always cracks me up.

You could say I lost my faith in science and progress
You could say I lost my belief in the holy church
You could say I lost my sense of direction
You could say all of this and worse but

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

Some would say I was a lost man in a lost world
You could say I lost my faith in the people on TV
You could say I'd lost my belief in our politicians
They all seemed like game show hosts to me

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

I could be lost inside their lies without a trace
But every time I close my eyes I see your face

I never saw no miracle of science
That didn't go from a blessing to a curse
I never saw no military solution
That didn't always end up as something worse but
Let me say this first

If I ever lose my faith in you
There'd be nothing left for me to do

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Why be normal?

Ken—

Nothing about the caution I expressed above can be interpreted as chilling discussion about instrument building or repair. I don’t understand why you are reacting as if I am trying to prevent you from discussing those topics. I’m clearly not. When you talk in a post above about how most of what is on the news is lies and propaganda, and the financial system is rigged, etc., those are political topics. There are folks on this forum who disagree with those views that you hold. Some of them feel strongly about their beliefs. I think this forum suffers when people spend their time on here spouting off about politics. I know for a fact that there are people on this forum whose political views I find abhorrent, and they feel likewise about mine. But I can talk civilly with those folks about how to do a decent fret job. I’m simply cautioning all of us that we have something to lose on the OLF if we let discussions move toward politics.

Sorry Don. I had no idea. No one I ever worked with ever very polical. No one. No one ever even talked about politics ever. I mean EVER. It was just something that was there every 4 years or so. Maybe I hung with a strange crowd?

I really could care less about politics. Apathy.

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Why be normal?

Hi Ken,
I accepted your original post as an apolitical statement of your personal beliefs, and took no offence to it. However, knowing what has transpired in past discussions from seemingly innocuous statements, I posted a gentle reminder to the group as a whole. There are some who could conflate everything beyond the initial posting as political in nature (and some might even say the topic itself is!) Such are the times we live in.
Don didn't single anyone out in his post, but offered an admonition to the group as a whole, just as I tried to do. I will gladly let him wear the scarlet letter, as I'm sure it will get better "service" than with an old hermit such as myself.

Wikipedia shut down edits last week on their 'inflation' page after a four day tug-of-war between those intent on retaining the generally accepted definition of the term and those intent on adjusting it to suggest that no generally accepted definition exists. This skirmish inexplicably occurred in the shadow of the week's biggest financial story, the announcement by the Bureau of Economic Analysis that US GDP had shrunk for the second consecutive quarter. In the last ten years, it seems like - when the facts are not on our side - we've moved from the old trial lawyer's advice to actually changing the facts at the source.

So given that background, it seems as though any inflation-related thread was doomed to descend into exchanges similar to what I've seen on my crocheting site (which is to say, alternating volleys of 'nothing to see here' versus 'my hair is on fire...I should run around in circles for a bit' themed posts). That the exchanges here were so civil was a pleasant surprise, but perhaps could have been anticipated given the company we keep on the OLF.

Now perhaps we can get back to discussing the sort of topics on which there are never an strong opinions expressed: hot hide glue, Ovation guitars, neck setting methods, and the various finish systems available.

Thanks for the kind interest and support expressed re: my health (I am feeling better, despite the usual fatigue and foggy grey matter), and my own best wishes for those doing battle with the bug.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I can chime in here and shed some light from a supply perspective. The available forest of havestable "old Growth Sitka spruce" Has shrunk exponentially in the last 2 yrs. January 2021, Sealaska Timber The Corporation ceased all logging operations. Sealaska Timber was the single largest producer in the world for old growth Timber in the PNW. Since ANLICA in 1982-83 They were harvesting and bringing to the market nearly .5 "Billion" bdft of old growth timber per yr in early yrs 80-90's. 2000's started a big decline on lands owned, as those lands were mostly logged. But they still had lands promised that were not selected and conveyed. 2016 they don't have enough wood to supply all their customers. I think was 2017 when the lands bill passed that transferred the remaining acreage to the native corporations. with that Sealaska moved operations to Cleveland peninsula and market was again flush with wood. Annual Harvest from the early yrs with operations all over SE Alaska of hundreds of millions bdft to under 200 million, since the lands bill in 2017ish. it was down to just two logging camps operating in Southern SE Alaska[Prince of Wales Island and vicinity] That's were we are located. and harvest at around 80 million bdft. 20% of this volume is old growth Sitka and only 30 % of that 20% whole volume is actually suitable in size and other for any high grade lumber production, including tonewood products. Sealaska quits, and that's a lot of old growth timber not going into the world market.
Apparently something similar has happened in BC Canada. There is no significant, if any, old growth Sitka harvestable from Washington State.
The last stand is right here in SE Alaska. And the last Hoorah is going on right now on lands conveyed to the State and reconveyed to A quasi state trust[Alaska Mental health Trust]. I'm not sure of the acerage, It was thought it would be a 10 yr project, but after 4 yrs, there may be 3-4 yrs left. And it is all going to the last Mill in SE Alaska here on POW, Viking Lumber. It's a primary breakdown mill and the single largest private employer on the island. so there ya go. Your going to see Old growth Sitka[trees 300-700 yrs old] become less available than little 100 yr old red spruce. We are salvage logging 4 timber sales this season after virtually no logging since 2011. Except for the acquisition of several log floats and 4 bridge stringer piles. But our salvage timber sales are dead and down trees. One sale of 12 logs was prospected in 2014, another of 18 trees was prospected in 2018. One 2 tree sale we logged 2 weeks ago was purchased this spring. And then a big project is ongoing, a result from the current MHT lands. Blow down trees and dead snags and high defect log left behind. We have our cat 325LL log shovel mobed out to the one sale from 2014 and will be logging it Sunday. Shovel logging the 12 trees bucked into 24 -30' logs out just shy of 1 mile, about 100 feet per swing at a time. That's the news from the last old growth temperate rainforest in North America. Maybe I'll load some pics to google drive and post a link here if anyone is interested.

Count me as interested!

Me too! Interested.

In the not too distant future "old growth spruce" might displace old growth Brazilian as most sought after by luthiers.

OMG-we seem to be off-kilter here in how we view our remaining old-growth forests-Sitka or not.

I'm slightly appalled at the ignorance.

Gary Davis

Since the subject is commented on, may I chime in a bit more?
Not to offend, but just share what I know from my 50 yrs experience in the forest/s.

Gary, I'm thinking there isn't much actual understanding on what "old Growth Forest" actually means. Few people have actually ever seen and walked in an actual old growth forest eco-system. Though I had been around forests of great lakes region, appalachia region, Montana, Idaho, Oregon and saw big older trees. None where OLd Growth Forest eco-systems. I didn't see until 1987 and coming to the temperate old growth rainforest of SE Alaska. That's not to say ther isn't the OG eco-system in any of those other regions. There is, I just had not been in one. There are some small pockets of OG that are protected and off limits to any harvest and commercial utilization.
Some would define OG as trees over 100 yrs old. But that would not be factually correct. a Forest of 100 yo trees may have some old growth forest attributes, Like somewhat open park like, under the canopy, and varied fauna on the forest floor. This is forest of older young growth trees. And this is just a "characteristic" of an old growth forest.
"Old growth" is actually an entire eco-system that actually takes multiple generations of trees to develop. Like 1000 yrs. It's a forest of multiple aged trees with young growth and middle aged growth amongst the old codgers.

I don't doubt either Mr. Davis's or Mr. Cole's experience and knowledge, but it seems like the definition of 'old growth' is being adjusted in a similar fashion to that which we've seen recently with inflation (the subject of this thread...remember? ), which is to say an adjustment of reality via a redefinition of reality by those on the downside of the issue. Is there a generally accepted definition of 'old growth' timber and forests, or is this more of a thing where we agree to the polite fiction that something (e.g., wood species trade names) is mutable at the whim of our marketing department?

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

To me the definition is pretty obvious. An old growth forest has NEVER been logged. When I was majoring in forestry for a short period in the 70's I got to see a large clear cutting operation in southeastern Oklahoma. It was an old growth forest, even though the southern pines were nowhere near the size of the old growth trees on the west coast. But the trees were large enough that it was obvious that they were not second growth. Also, the trees were various sizes which indicated a "natural" forest that had not been logged. A clear cut results in a lot of new trees getting started at the same time. Where it gets difficult to judge is when a few large trees have been culled (not a clear cut). The only evidence remaining will be a few stumps and logging roads. I live in a forested area that was culled in the 30's. It's very difficult to see any evidence of that today.

Barry, you got it on the Old growth definition. Now back to the "inflation" 2 things that I see regarding cost of goods, specifically wood. Is the supply crunch and demand steady. The other has been mentioned previously is the devaluation of currency which has been happening since complete un-coupling of backing in 1972. Now with this last couple yrs of exponential printing and spending.. HOLY poop! We haven't seen nothing yet, and The poop storm is at the door. I hope everyone has a garden for food and other preparations..

Total worldwide gold on-hand/known-in-ground: 244,000 metric tons (8.6E9 ounces).
Total value of on-hand/known-in-ground gold (16 August, 2022): ~ $15T
Total value of 'money' either in US currency or held in checking/savings/investment accounts and denominated in $: ~$40T
And this is why we cannot have nice things... or at least a gold standard.

To move back to gold, we would either have to inflate gold values to somewhere near $50K/ounce (forget affordable manufacturing of electronics contacts or ruby/red glass) or drag a precious metal-rich asteroid back to Earth for exploitation. 16 Psyche, a 150 mile diameter asteroid thought to be worth about 10,000 quadrillion dollars - $1E19 worth of iron, nickel, gold, silver, rare earths, etc. - would allow us to move to a platinum standard or something similar for those that have issues with fiat currency. Given about 7.8E9 people on the planet, it's interesting to noodle on 16 Psyche creating a post-scarcity economy when money is essentially meaningless. In other words, pursuing the precious metals necessary for a non-fiat currency system likely obviates the very concept and need for money.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Considering the value of aluminium historically and what it is today, using gold as a standard only works if there is a scarcity of it. Like aluminium it has intrinsic value as a useful metal but gold is valued far beyond that.
What the true value of money is, is what it can help you acquire. A bushel of corn is worth more than a pot of gold if you are starving. In this modern age most of us have our money tied up in 1's and 0's.