Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all. if you read my last post, you know i have moved to Indonesia. Starting up again after a long break .
Just bought me some amazingly beautiful wood.
1. Mahogany "Toona Sureni" local mahogany and to my eyes very close to Honduran. light in weight and soft. not at all like sapele that is much harder.
2. Monkeypod. will cut this up and will be having a few sets for sale later on. Sending photos after its been cut up. bought 2 fat slabs from old wood.
3. Jakaranda. Indoneian Rosewood, Asian rosewoods. Just came back from looking at the 2 amazingly beautiful logs, very old and bought 2 pieces. very similar to Brazillian to the eyes here are some photos of the logs, please feel free to tell me what you think. I will not be able to use all this and will be cutting up sets of this if anyone is interested. The Indonesian Sonokeling is not endangered, but Rosewood has been added to the list of endangered species as a whole. So i am not sure its possible to ship if. but i guess 1 set or 2 at a time will not be a problem. I hope for anyone with more experience on this to let me know. same for the mahogany.

Here is what LMII write about this wood.
Dalbergia bariensis and/or Dalbergia cochinensis
Few woods compare with Brazilian Rosewood as nicely as this one and it's superb density has led many to claim that it is superior. Our sets exhibit an extremely lively, sonorous tap tone. The color ranges from a warm brick-red (reminiscent of Honduran Rosewood) to an attractive rust-brown color. Less porous than most Rosewoods, it finishes nicely and is not difficult to bend for such a dense wood. We don't expect to be able to obtain this wood in the future as there is little legal wood available. As these sets consist of the two species above mixed and matched, we are unable to export it since cochinensis is CITES II listed.

Here are some photos of the rosewood. 1 is about 400mm wide and the other is about 300mm wide

That's some nice looking wood there Lars!

_________________
Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

Sweet! Yeah you are right in the heart of it all there.

Thanks alot for the replies my friends. do you have any info regarding the the shipping questions and do you all think there is an interest for us all that i order this and make it into guitar back and sides sets ? I worry to buy to much of it and then it will mostly just sit on my shelf. or all my guitars from now and the future will be Rosewoods hahaha. I felt i dont want to miss this oppertunity when i found this amazing wood and not buy more of it.. Its even rare here in Indonesia now to find good logs for this accordingly to the locals and here they say that most of the locals are afraid to sell it even when they have papers due to the police trying to find ways to make an extra buck Lots of corruption !. There is papers for the wood but the local carpenter who had a friend in the bush had these logs and a few more cut several years ago. So do let me know if there is an interest and i will buy a few more and sell them to us friends here at the forum for a really good price.
Also if anyone has a advice on the best way to cut these to get the most out of the logs. I have a large resaw bandsaw 10cm wide blade to use but not used to cut this big timber. shoudl i plain saw (live sawn) or quartersaw (are they large enough for quarter sawing ? largest log is almost 400mm across with the heart in the center of the log. the other log is 300mm with heart a little on the side as you can se on the photo. Any advice is warmly welcomed ....

Hej Lars!
Good to see you back on the forum.
I have no clue where LMII got its info. Sonokeling is the name Indonesians give to Dalbergia latifolia, known elsewhere as East Indian rosewood. Same thing. All CITES restrictions apply, as for other rosewoods (excepting Brazilians). In short, you need a CITES export permit to sell raw material across an international border, but finished instruments with less than 10kg trade freely.
Hej så länge!


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Cochinesis is about a decade away from extinction. The Thai government posts armed guards to protect some of their few remaining wild trees from poachers. Some comes from Laos and Cambodia but most of it is black/grey market. I was unaware that there was any legal, commercial logging of the species these days. Perhaps there are plantations in Indonesia?

Most of the cochinesis that is felled I believe ends up in China for use in high-end furniture, and this over-exploitation is one of the main drivers for its decline in the wild. Is the lumber you saw grown locally in Indonesia or imported from elsewhere in Southeast Asia?

I’m a couple thousand miles to the south east of you and even though we are “relatively close” to Indonesia (and Southeast Asia) with significant trade ties, cochinesis is basically unobtainable here, at least in the circles I move in.

I have no idea what would be involved in getting enough of a paper trail together to legally export a small amount. I imagine you’d need to show a legal provenance for the original log or cant. If you manage it I’d be interested to hear about what is involved.

A Foreigner selling and shipping rare endangered hardwood in Indonesia that the locals won't do - what could go wrong?
You might want to reconsider.....

Thanks a lot for all the info. I am also checking everything. Tim , It is not Indian rosewood. Sonokoling is the word refering to "rosewood" not specifically Indian or brazillian, just rosewood. this is at least what the indonesians here tell me. Just like LMII says it can either be Dalbergia bariensis and/or Dalbergia cochinensis.

I am not sure yet how it work here, but some people have legal papers from goverment for the rosewood. This is cut many years ago so it is not taken when restrictions was as pronounced as they are now. I do know its not legal to ship logs and raw timber. But guitar sets is more of a finished product i guess. I am checking all. Please continue with the info. I am not sure now what to do, will for sure get these 2 pieces to cut up to back and sides. Look forward to hear more info if anyone has some. Here is a photo of the wood again planed a little.

The difficult thing here is that those selling wood does not know the species latin names at all. for them rosewood is rosewood and Trembesi (monkeypod) is trembesi. If i show them Brazillian rosewood they will just say Ohh Sonokoling. perhaps i can try give Jeffrey Jong a call in malaysia, i guess he will know more regarding this. ...

That is a lovely piece of wood.
I'm sure many of us feel that guitar making uses a relatively small percentage of the timber harvested and that it is going to a "higher use", but the local authorities and the global community may feel differently. I have always believed in conservation rather than in preservation, but it is sometimes hard to navigate between sustainable use and extinction of a species.
With the current laws regarding international trade it is hard to know what is legal and what is not. They are often ambiguous and contradictory, especially between countries, and seem to change like the phases of the moon. Even some of the large guitar makers have had problems importing stuff.
I'm sure you know the situation there much better than I, and I only write this cautionary note with the best intentions. It would be unfortunate to run afoul of the law over selling a few pieces of wood.
It is nice to see you posting again - all the best to you!

Thanks a lot Clay for that.. Yes i agree. I honestly was not going to buy it so i can sell it. My first though was that I want to buy a small quantity to make some awesome looking guitasrs. but I also felt that all you in here, my old friends who have taught me alot and always came with good advise and amny even sent wood to me to help out in the past could benefit from this wood and i was mostly thinking to of helping out rather than making money on the wood. SO my intention was merly with love for you guys to be able to return the many favours and help over the years you all been given me. I saw that LMII was selling it for way way more than it actually cost for me to buy it. I gave under 300USD for those 2 logs on the photo 300mm and 400mm wide.
So foremost I wanted it to myself for guitars. but since they said they had 10 more of each of those logs i though that maybe some of you guys was interestedcto also get some good looking guitarwood.
It is a little silly i think about the laws about making it illegal for "small business luthiers to buy rosewood etc.. when we all know that every minutew or less, the size of 1 wembley stadium if cut from the amazon Rainforest.
Its the same stupidity that the lawmakers do to raise gas prices due to polution, but in the same time let the big ships cross the world oceans knowing that 1 of those ships with containers on through out as much polution as 5 million cars when going from one side of the world to the other ! 1 ship ! ..
So instead of of banning the ships from sailing without catalysators on their engines they ad tax to us working class people.
So instead of banning large forestry companies from harvesting millions of logs, they ban it for a small luthier to sell or buy a 2meter piece of wood.
. Just rambling ....

Couldn't agree more Lars..

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Hi Lars, I live in Indonesia but sorry I don't know about export import, maybe you can ask to Export Import Office in your city. You know here (Indonesia) many changes to the law, especially raw material more difficult to send overseas. A little info of Indonesian hardwood you can find Makassar Ebony, Amara, {(Rambutan, Mango, Jackfruit) tropical fruit plant} , tamarind. But most Indonesian don't care or don't know Latin name. As you know Sonokeling is sonokeling they don't know Rosewood. The difference here they cut trees as needed, regardless of tree age or diameter, usually made by handicrafts or kitchen utensils or mebelair.

This is some photo

this classical guitar back & side Sonokeling local wood, the fret board and bridge is Rambutan wood, and soundboard is Sitka Spruce (orphane) from Alaska Specialty Wood.