Official Luthiers Forum!

Some of you moldy oldies like me will remember story problems from grade school. You know when little Johnny had four apples and little Jill had three etc, etc, etc.

So I wanted to give you fine folks a view of my professional life with a real life example from an honest to God real life customer of ours. This fellow is famous, you would know of him but I can't use his name here because I didn't ask and he might not like being an example either. Great guy though and a pleasure to deal with.

So he purchases a Martin 13 series, the new ones made very well in Mexico by the way. He brings it to us and I set it up and he loves it. He gigs when he can but these days things are dicey with indoor events at times... But he loves it so much he purchases a second one just like the first one.

I received an email yesterday he's noticed that the volume and bass is louder and more profound with the newest one that has not been set up. He asks me if I could look at both of them and do what it takes to get them more closely matched in tone and volume so he can gig with them both with one dedicated to alternate tunings. If they more closely match the sound guys on the boards won't have to deal with a mismatch.

Hesh here writes him back and sets his expectations as accurately as I can. That's all I know how to do anyway. He's thrilled and we will see him and both guitars next week for me to do my thing.

What do you think that I told him and why? Extra credit for every time you use the word............ subjective.

What say you?

The Weiner wins an OLF tub of lard and if you believe that I have bridge for sale too But seriously this is a very fine example of what working in the trade Luthiers may be asked about and how we need to respond to a question like this one. Thought you might find it fun.

You told him to learn how to turn the knobs.

Maybe to 11 too.

Well it does depend on which way he wanted to go. So does he like the bassy one best and wants you to make the other one bassy or does he like the trebley one best and wants the bassy one to be more trebley?

Bassy and trebely are words right?

Great point JF, he said he likes the one I set-up better and that has a bit less volume and bass.

No two pieces of wood are the same and no two guitars can ever sound exactly the same, but will do my best to get them as close as possible.

Oh, Amen. If the player is using pickups, it is a lot easier to make two guitars sound similar using the electronics than altering the guitars themselves. And there are presets on a lot of the relevant sound gear. Assign the tweaks for guitar 1 to button 1, assign the tweaks for guitar 2 to button 2. Even a drummer can work the board once you do that.

Ok I should have provided more information. This is not an EQ issue or electronics issue at all, this is the unamplified response of the two guitars, both the exact same model and close in vintage that he wants more closely matched.

There were some huge hints too in the story problem... such as one has been properly set-up and one hasn't but that's only part of it, a small part of it.

You told him that the new one may sound different to him since it has not been set up the way he wants. It's likely that without the setup, the strings are higher above the soundboard and sound hole and therefore it has a little more volume and bass. It is also likely that it just sounds different because it is different. Same shape but the two guitars have woods that are in no way identical other than name. Sound is so subjective. I've played guitars before and thought they were muddy with no clarity only to hand them off to a fellow player that thought the same guitar sounded a bit thin and bright. Huh? Different ears, different hands and fingers.

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jw ( o)===:::

Alternate tunings = a while heap of alternates...possible strings, tensions, the setup itself of course...I wouldn't set an instrument up for standard tuning as I would for alternate tunings and the overall acoustic output of the instrument can possibly vary significantly with all the above considered...
Outside of the fact that two instruments of identical model really means nothing (wood as the material and all) he's requesting a similar outcome for two instruments with two different intentions...
I'm certain you'll execute his wishes to the best of your abilities and what's possible for the instrument however, in the end, ya get what ya get and that may not tick every box the client was hoping for. Or it does...we'll see...

Doc

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I would have told him “sure I can do that, a .74” wide piece of Bondo .61” high stuck to the bass X brace exactly 4.25” distal to the X junction will attenuate the bass response exactly the way you imagine you want.”

I do it all the time. Bet you do too.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Change strings.

This sounds familiar! Why only today a customer insisted I kill the volume and bass response of his very nice OM by knocking the saddle down to a protrusion of 1/64th and installing .011s! Now it sounds terrible but plays as buttery as his 335! If he left his amp at home and stuck a mic in the 335’s f-hole they’d sound about the same and the sound guy can take that extra smoke break


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You nailed it Bro well done. Here is a cut-n-paste of my actual email to him, he will be at our place sometime tomorrow with both guitars. You hit all the big points, well done!

"Hey *******, Hesh here and I hope that you are doing great!

Congrats on the new ax, very cool.

So here are the considerations in an effort to accurately set your expectations as correctly as possible.

Not only will two guitars of the same model, maker and perhaps made right next to each other perhaps sound somewhat differently if you also add in that they were both built with wood from the same tree they still may sound differently. There will be similarities but there will never be any guarantees what the outcome in terms of this elusive thing called tone might be.

Wood is not homogeneous by any means and as a builder myself who built 54 1/2 guitars often with the same wood from the same trees the results were all different and like people who share a heritage or genetics they are all individuals.

Some of the differences in bass and volume are likely that one has been dialed in and set-up and the other hasn't, My hunch is that we can make them sound more the same but no guarantees because again wood is different even from the same tree.

The one that has not been set-up if it has slightly higher action it will have more bass and volume. An acoustic guitar bridge works by string tension torquing the saddle (rocking a bit) and that gets transmitted to the top and the top and back act on that energy like a fireplace bellows and that's the volume that results. Higher action, more torque on the bridge, more rock and more volume. Bass sucks up much more power from an instrument than treble and this is true of our amps and speakers too. Takes very little wattage to produce treble but lots of wattage to produce bass.

So sorry for being pedantic ****** but I think that you appreciate the details here and it's part of explaining what's possible and whats not.

With all this said my hunch is that if we set-up guitar 2 to perfectly match the set-up I did on guitar 1 they will sound a bit more alike, perhaps a lot more alike and the volume will more closely match. There are no guarantees though. Tone is very subjective.

So why don't you bring them both in so I can use guitar 1 as a reference and match it's set-up specs with guitar 2. We can also go over guitar 2 with a fine tooth comb and make certain that the saddle is not binding, the saddle slot is truly flat and all the little tweaks that we do to milk tone from a guitar.

This would just be a set-up and if I have it on any day you can have it back the next business day. We are open M, W, F 10 - 4 and if it's F I would call first Dave is in and out on Friday a lot.

We are both fully vaccinated, boosted and wearing quality masks and I am sure you are too. You don't need an appointment with us, ever but we do say appointments required on our web site.

Hope this helps, congrats and I think we can narrow the gap in tone between the two I just want you to have your expectations accurately set that wood is very variable and that makes chasing an exact tone at times futile but lets try to get it dialed in anyway. My hope is that we can get them very close. Age and usage change tone too so lots of variables here.

Hesh"

Yep we do it all of the time Terry you have me laughing out loud at 4:00 AM.

Mmmmm, lard, lard, lard

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jw ( o)===:::

We can stir in some BRW dust too if you want Congrats buddy!!

Ok thanks for playing and there is one last thing that I hope some will notice from this story problem.

To many here guitars are a woodworking project. To me they are a tool for a musician, ultimately. And what are musicians? People just like you and I, kind of....

So to have an accurate view of my world where I work in the trade you have to include the people and their passions, wants, dislikes, etc. Here we had an example of someone chasing a specific sound that they have experienced before and want again.

That happened to me on a sofa in Coldwater, Michigan in 1966 with a 1956 Les Paul Gold Top in my lap and a Twin with dual JBLs. Been chasing that tone ever since..... Who knew.

Let us know how it turns out.

Hmmm... Time to take a hammer to the piggy?

https://www.elderly.com/products/gibson ... urce=zaius

Yeah I know I've been watching this one and like it.... a lot..... I have several friends at Elderly, Luthiers who I considered asking them to check it out for me to save me the drive if there are any obvious issues. What I really want is a 56 and they have one too but it's $40K. But I do not need another guitar but I have been watching this one, dang it.... They have a third too for about $18K 54 I think and a special that is pretty cool too. Posted on my Facebook page that Elderly is having a vintage Les-Paul-O-ramma. Must be a collector letting go because all three including a melody maker have appeared in the last 90 days.

I hope you are doing great Bob!!