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I have no way to obtain celluloid materials apart from China. They normally only have those pearloid stuff but I see on Aliexpress they have ivoroid with the line and stuff (same stuff they use on those Collings guitars). I can't get them from the states... but Aliexpress don't seem to care about shipping them all over the world, so my question is has anyone used Chinese celluloid materials?

Last time I used them they seem to shrink a lot... is there a way I can fix that (such as maybe leave it somewhere hot/dry for a few days)?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

To pre-shrink new celluloid, I ventilate it with a fan for a few days. As I understand it, the culprit is excess camphor. It is required for stability, but too much in the mix seerns to cause the initial shrinkage.
I bought some of the Chinese ivoroid binding, but I found it to be too translucent between the stripes, making it a bit dark when installed on dark woods like rosewood or mahogany. I suppose you could back it up with a white layer of wood or plastic, but I haven't tried it.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

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John

Thin ivory piano key tops have the same translucency problem. Painting the inlay cavity white helps solve this problem.

I have ordered from Rothko without any problems. You may want to check them out.

https://www.rothkoandfrost.com/guitar-m ... luloid-t46

I looked at Rothko and it looks like their items are sourced from China (I could be wrong). It does say on its website that everything they sell is make in the UK... But at the same time when I worked at Walmart just about all their products says "made in the USA of imported components"... The reason I said it could be sourced from China is because their products looks exactly like what they have on Aliexpress, and with the exact same dimension too. There's even sanding blocks that they sell which I find on Taobao, looks exactly the same.

I read somewhere on Quora that there are not many celluloid plants in the world because production of celluloid is incredibly dangerous, like explosions and stuff (it is basically gun cotton after all), and there are only two factories in China making the stuff. I imagine making celluloid in any Western countries will be extremely expensive due to regulatory requirements.

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Celluloid manufacture in the US was phased out with the inplementation of OSHA.

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John

I'm sure they make smokeless powder in the US, so why don't they manufacture celluloid as well?

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Tai, the stuff from Rothko may very well be made in China but I'll vouch for it, it's good stuff and definitely the real deal. I don't really care where it is made as long as it's good and this stuff is indeed good.

ABS, ABS/PVC alloys, and vinyl are all much less expensive options than celluloid, which is likely part of the reason why manufacturers went to those options when they became viable for instrument work. I've never toured a propellant factory, but my understanding is that there are so few of them due to the cost of worker safety and other compliance issues, as well as insurance (an underwriter friend of mine tells me that liability insurance makes the world go round... or at least the financial parts of it). The propellants my friends used for reloading during the pandemic ran close to $25 per pound for the modern sporting rifles and semi-automatic pistols we shoot (no HAZMAT fees included in that); CPVC pipe runs about $0.50 per pound in 3/4" size.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

Celluloid as we all know breaks down over time and like nitrocellulose lacquer it has a life. We see vintage instruments with celluloid parts that are deteriorating at a noticeable rate and when they do they outgas and often corrode other parts of the instruments such as the frets, etc.

As such unlike the wood we use celluloid is a weak link in a musical instruments chances of surviving to be a vintage or heirloom instrument. Knowing this it's not a bad material to phase out of use entirely in my view. A well made guitar should be able to do 100 years of adult use seems a shame to use any material knowingly that can't do that too.

There is also the issue of flammability and that gets into things such as limited shipping requirements because it's flammable. So it now costs more, it can burst into flames and it won't last as long as some plastics or wood. Not exactly a compelling value proposition for anyone creating anything new.

We have to use it for vintage restoration but I would not build a new guitar with it these days.

Well all the more expensive instruments use them... Collings, Martin, Gibson, etc.

Perhaps it's not really "better" just like nitrocellulose lacquer isn't really better (checks, deteriorates, takes forever to cure, etc.) but expensive instruments use them because subjectively, customers who pay 5000 dollars expect them to be used because they somehow associate vintage instruments with quality.

Why can't they make pearloid, ivoroid, etc. out of acrylic or ABS plastic? They have none of the problem with celluloid.

But if some company in Italy makes expensive pens out of celluloid, people will continue to associate them with quality. I mean celluloid is one reason why old films have to be stored in controlled environment... they are literally one spark from being lost forever!

I mean now I use wood binding or ABS if I feel like using plastic, 2K poly (use the HS type, it's worth it), and they are objectively better. 2K poly doesn't shrink, doesn't check, but people associate them with lesser quality...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Correction makers of vintage instrument use it and that's because they are seeking to be period correct. A maker of a contemporary instrument can do whatever they like. I'll tell you too with all the money that Martin has to pay us and hundreds of other repair centers to reattach shrunken binding I'll bet they wish that they had some of today's plastics way back when and never used it.

So I'm not swayed at all by what others use because I understand why they are using it to be period correct for vintage appeal.

Personally I never used any plastic on mine except for some pick guards at times that were requested. All my bindings were wood. I think that plastic and even celluloid looks cheesy on a guitar that is billed to be from an individual Luthier.

If you're the maker use whatever you like and maybe it will catch on which is better than catching on fire.

I seen a guy replace Martin's binding with wood because it was falling off...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I would suggest that celluloid is one of those materials that is very dependent on manufacturer as to service life, and that no-name material from China or from Taiwan, or indeed non-Italian in terms of origin is a roll of the dice.

Examples abound. Both Gretsch and Gibson have been badly bitten by bad batches of binding materials (and possibly excessive alliteration), with Country Gentlemen and J-50 Deluxes of a certain age becoming economically unrepairable due to the labor involved in rebinding. In particular, Country Gentlemen seem to see the body and fretboard bindings shed acidic fumes such that they corrode the plating on metal parts and eventually crumble to dust, all while the head stock binding seems to age in the way I would prefer to emulate.

Somewhat offsetting the chance of early binding failure is the difficulty some makers have in keeping ABS or Bolteron bindings on the guitar. As part of the reset fun-fest I had last weekend, every one of those four post-celluloid Martins I worked on needed either binding repairs or a redo of the previous never-to-be-sufficiently-damned Titebond repairs done by well-intended but otherwise short-sighted techs.

As to use of plastic binding, I would say that guitars in the vintage style tend to be bound in the same materials used on the prototype, while those built outside of that market niche are, as mentioned, usually bound in wood. While we've bound re-topped D-35's in curly maple, most owners wanted the same material as used by factory builders...too bad, as those guitars are quite lovely once their flaws are addressed.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I don't think all the modern Martins that I'm reattaching bindings on are bound with celluloid, it looks like vinyl to me.
It is amazing to me that tons of guitars from the 20's 30's and 40's were bound with celluloid and are still holding fine, while the 50's & 60's guitars are shedding bindings regularly. Pretty sure the formula changed somewhere.
And yes, the buying public will prefer vinyl and celluloid, because that is what the factory used and is still using.
The buyers of my guitars, and yours, will have to prefer what we are using, for me it is wood.

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Martin switched from celluloid to Bolteron (an ABS/PVC alloy) in 1966, and vinyl purflings and rosette rings at some point I cannot fix in my research. We seldom saw any failures of binding joints at Greenridge on Martin guitars made prior to 1966 that were not aggravated by other damage, but frequently saw issues on Bolteron-bound Martins (black or the bright white bindings on 1966 and later standard series guitars). For the period between 1966 and roughly 2012, our experience was that Martin had no real issue keeping ivoroid or tortoid bindings on their guitars, but Bolteron on the standards was somewhat of an issue.

The big binding problems started around the end of 2012 and continued through 2016 or so, with Martin making a switch to a single adhesive for all bindings for that time period (wood, Bolteron, celluloid) and purflings (fiber, vinyl). This adhesive did not hold up well over time, and guitars from the period were seen to have a very high rate of joint failure without regard to the type of binding material. Since about 2016, Martin has been using a revised binding glue that seems to hold up pretty well, given the range of materials used and high VOC, solvent-rich lacquer-based finishes.

In my opinion, it's as difficult to get a clean binding job in white or ivoroid celluloid as it is in wood, with the labor difference mostly in the time spent bending wood bindings. Black and tortoid celluloid is a bit easier, but requires some work to plan for showing off the tortoid to best advantage (white, full-depth backing purfling). Good work in either wood or celluloid requires a firm understanding of the materials used, the differences in technique required, and how best to execute the job in terms of order of operations.

I recall working on one of your small-body 12 fret-to-body guitars, Mr. Newton... it had a satiny shellac finish inviting contact and simple, minimalist wood bindings and purflings - a nice, elegantly simple combination which worked well with the design and material choices on the rest of the instrument.

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For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan

I am actually hoping to get away from white wood binding materials... It is actually a lot of work to keep it clean... and my last plastic binding job was a disaster, mainly because I can't find ABS sheets that are the exact same shade of the binding I used, leading to color difference. The outfit that I bought the binding from didn't have ABS sheets at all except for electric guitar back cover plate... which was unfortunate.

I am thinking that darker wood, such as EIRW would be easy to look clean because breaks/joints are hidden by its darkness. Even on curly maple it was impossible to hide joints.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I was always a 'never plastic' kind of guy too but when someone wants you to build with it then you do. And after using Ivoroid on several guitars now I actually quite like it. And hey it's celluloid which is made from wood fibers so it's wood

I think it looks great against BRW and certainly is traditional.

There is a wide variety of material from China and I have found some decent material. The Ivroid that I got was from Gurian and I bought the last sheets last year so I am good. Martin sells Ivroid again through GMC which is reopened , they also sell the tortoise but won't sent it out of the country. Also the ivroid in over 60 in length is now a thing of the past from what I am hearing. The manufacturer will only make it in 50 in sheets. Martin used to get shorter material and according to Milt Hess they joined it at the lower bout.
Hope Martin has found a longer product supplier

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

That is a very good point. While I suppose both celluloid and Galalith - commonly used on both facotry and custom instruments - are plastics per the materials science definition, they are not the petrochemical-derived plastics we love to hate (but cannot live without, as the recent advert illustrating that fact demonstrated).

_________________
For the times they are a changin'

- Bob Dylan