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Someone gave me this Collings Baby 2H. It has 2 big cracks on the back (I think the guitar was dropped when the original case latch had failed). I think I should be able to fix this, but I need some advise...

What do Collings use as finish? From the way it peeled on the neck joint, it looks like some kind of catalyzed urethane.

Also if I put cleats on the inside of the crack after gluing it shut, it's going to be seen inside the soundhole. Are cleats absolutely necessary? I want to fix this without making it look like it has been fixed if it's possible...

https://i.imgur.com/hYPiGee.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iIVrDtW.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/tnNuvT5.jpg

This is the damage... I just need to put glue into it and push the crack closed....
[url]
https://i.imgur.com/ieOOMZi.jpg[/url]

The finish around the diamond is peeling a little bit...

I know Collings make very good guitars, but I never really had any experience with them...

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Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Body Finish High gloss nitrocellulose lacquer
Neck Finish High gloss polyester resin
Above from https://www.collingsguitars.com/acoustic-guitars/baby-2h/
Good luck, they're excellent high end guitars and very well finished.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

So here's the problem..

The crack is displaced, as shown in the picture. I can't seem to get the wood apart at all to get it back into place. Any suggestions? I'm trying to not cause further damage... And it's almost as if the wood displaced and glued itself in the now displaced state.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I have seen tops that would not close up that had carefully fitted slivers of matching wood glued in without squeezing the parts together. But I am no expert.

By the way, are your photos uploaded with links to other articles if you hit the right arrow in the photo?

I used imgur because this site requires me to manually crop/resize photos in order to meet the size requirement that is hopelessly outdated. However if I use the img tag to display the photo it would take up the entire screen... so I'm not sure what to do.

I managed to fix the displacement. I placed a lead block under the crack and tapped it with a fretting hammer, and was able to level it. Now I just need to glue it shut.

I need some LMI hide glue but I can't order from the states right now... COVID means I probably won't get the package anytime soon. All I got is some titebond original.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I use Imgur too and when you view one of your images there you will see a lot of option on the right of the image to copy code. You can also select the image size below that then click on the BBCode option and paste here.

Someone gave you that guitar? Dang! that's a good deal.

Titebond is fine. In fact, it is preferable to HHG unless you are setup to work really fast. Like getting clamps applied within seconds. Magnets are the modern alternative to clamps. TJ Thompson has a great tool for repairing back cracks.

https://proluthiertools.com/product/back-crack-repair-kit/

I have a thread over on the MIMF showing the use of this kit.

https://www.mimf.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6381&hilit=martin+back+crack

Yes you need to use cleats. I wouldn't worry too much about them being seen through the sound hole. But you can make the cleats less visible if you match the cleats wood species to the back and make them very small with soft beveled edges. Also an oval cleat is less visible than a diamond shape.

Before seeing your reply I was going to suggest that the two displaced pieces may be hung up on the rough surface they would both have. Make sure you don't have any splinters of wood siting in there that could spoil the glueing.

Cheers Dave

OK, I missed the point. I thought the cracks were open, not vertically displaced.

As far as cleats, I have built at least one guitar with no decorative strip up the back and no reinforcement strip, and it is still together after 25 years. If you have your wood together, does it really need cleats? I do not think you are going to kick the back again, or whatever happened.

My opinion is that a crack will seldom give as clean of a joint as you get when you prepare a center joint. Usually the crack will have been open for some time and may have dirt or polish which can compromise the joint. Also the time factor allows oxidation of the surfaces which will lessen the strength of the repair, whereas a center joint should be machined within a few minutes before gluing to increase the strength. I really don't think you can compare the two.

I read that Collings are assembled with HHG, or so they claim...

Also I notice on most factory guitars, the inside is REALLY clean. There is no evidence of a clean up either. How did they manage this? Is it just a side effect of a quick production schedule, or something else? Because try as I might the inside of the body is always going to have dust, dirt, oxidation, or glue squeeze out that can be sanded clean, but it would never look as pristine as a factory guitar. Or do they put some tape like thing onto the back before gluing the braces in?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Factories all have different production processes. There are differing levels of tooling and automation depending on who we are talking about. But consider this hypothetical:

How neat and efficient would you be at gluing back braces, if you sat at your assigned station and glued the back braces on say, 100 guitars a week for five years?

We use cleats as additional reinforcement for a joint that we believe may be stressed and require more surface area glued than what is available in an uncleated crack.

With this said where the crack is, how long it's been open and most importantly, most importantly... how it closes are the deciding criteria for if cleats would be used or not. We can be informed by desires to not see cleats or where the repair is and if it's visible but that's a more superficial concern if, if.... the cracks close with difficulty and the thing really needs to be cleated.

So if the cracks can be closed with RH manipulation and remain closed or nearly closed several days later at 45 RH or normal RH for this instrument and where it lives cleating may not be necessary. If on the other hand the cracks will not stay mostly closed on their own I would cleat it.

If I had to weigh the importance of an invisible repair against a repair that may very likely fail invisibility is a secondary concern to me.

So for you and this guitar the answer lies in how the cracks close and if they stay mostly closed for several days as you have it in your shop.

I have one in a bag for four days that I will take out today in a few hours. Then it will sit for three days at 45% RH. It will be cleated anyway but I am looking for how much the cracks stay closed once returned to normal RH. That is how I determine if I cleat or not, if it stays closed unglued at normal RH I may not need cleats. Again I use them anyway nearly always including on Jeff Daniel's custom made Galloup guitar that was cracked below the bridge because functionality supersedes all else with me.

If you read Elderly's web site quality repair work does not harm the value of an instrument. Functionality is what a guitar should be all about because it's a tool for a musician.

Good luck, I would cleat it but I gave you a method to determine for yourself why or if it's necessary.

Yea, I'm definitely going to use cleats because I don't want the cracks growing over time. I managed to close the displacement and I'll also need to repair the finish and fill in some of the missing wood, probably with thicker CA glue. Then I can go and buff the imperfections out.

It's funny how cracks don't affect the value of a guitar because I saw on ebay someone paying over 1000 dollars for a completely smashed up Gibson J200... no idea why anyone would want that considering it would need 2000 dollars more worth of work before it's even usable.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

I have gotten a lot cleaner on the inside of my guitars over the years but I do know what you are saying. A Taylor won't sound as good as mine but darn if they are not pristine on the inside. One thing I learned a long time ago, over a period of time, is that it really doesn't take much glue to get the job done. So rarely do I see squeeze out on my inside linings any more.

The other thing is that, I never really cared about what the inside of the guitar looked like. Somehow that became 'a thing' what seems like a decade or so ago. I mean, I'm not talking classic vintage Gibson tone snot (thanks Hesh) but just a pencil mark here or there or maybe a bit of squeeze out. Some guitar buyers it seems rate the quality of the guitar by what it looks like on the inside. So at this point I at least try to build clean. But I have a hard enough time making the outside of the guitar look nice.

Lots of Chinese guitars that sound terrible but have a too good to be true price are pristine inside. But then they likely make thousands and thousands and throw away a good percentage of them...

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

One other suggestion: With that much damage, thoroughly inspect the inside for loose braces and linings. When you string it back up and it’s under tension check again.

Frank Ford once suggested using gelatin when hide glue isn’t available.

Good you said this... I discovered the entire upper back brace is completely loose, only held on by a hair. That needs to be reglued too.

That brace also cracked where it inletted into the side.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com