Official Luthiers Forum!

I notice the amount of force I need to install frets, particularly with Stewmac's fret wire is really high... so much so that anything I use to pad the neck, regardless of what it is, would imprint onto the back of the neck. On a guitar I am building I can fix this... usually sanding and spot refinish (not too concerned about neck's look, as it will all be knocked down to satin anyhow... nobody likes a shiny neck) but on refrets this could be a problem. I usually put a lead block under the neck as I hammer the frets in to maximize efficiency, and even that is denting the neck itself (because mahogany is so soft..).

What do you do to prevent from denting a neck during refret?

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Are you sure the tang isn't longer than the slots are deep? I had that problem recently with StewMac frets. Also, if the back of your neck is getting dented from support - that is a clear indicator of a problem with the hammering of frets.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I've always made a little test fret from whatever wire I'm using--I file off the tangs, and cut and bend the fretwire at an angle at the end to make a little test piece that I can run up and down the fret slot to check for proper fit. If I find the wire runs deeper than the slots, I use one of those Stew Mac saw things (made for clearing out slots for refretting) to deepen the slot wherever the problem is.

Dave

In addition to the potential problem with the fit of the frets to the slots, what are you resting the neck on that would dent it? I use a sandbag to support the neck and there's no way that would cause dents even if I were give a really hard whack with the hammer (which I never need to do).

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

I'm supporting the back of the neck with either those cork lined neck rests, or a lead block. The lead block makes a very good support but it still dents necks.

I don't use sand bags or shot bags because I can't get lead shots in Taiwan.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

You don't need lead shot. You can get sand though, right? Here's a photo of the sandbag I use. I put 12.5 lbs of sand in a small plastic trash bag, tied off the trashbag opening, put it inside a section of a pant leg from an old pair of jeans, and tied off the openings of the pant leg. It's simple to make and works great. It conforms to shape of the neck so it distributes the forces over a wide area and provides good support.

Edit: Thinking back on it, I put the trash bag with the sand in it inside a second trash bag to be doubly sure that the sand would stay inside the pants leg. Ten years later, no leakage.

_________________
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Jay - that is GENIUS! I love it!

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Fret barber. Even using StewMac's own slotting saw with their wire, I've never had one fit perfectly right off the bat. And even if I did have a perfectly matched saw, it would only fit one wire. Every kind I've tried has been a little different tightness.

The only problem with the fret barber is that you have to remember to use it before cutting the frets to length, so you have enough wire to get a grip on and pull through. After cutting to length, the only way I know of to adjust the fit is to hit the barbs one by one with a dremel wheel (takes forever).

I'd recommend making the barber yourself rather than buying it. There's very little to it. You could even make the body out of wood, with a nut epoxied into it for the thumb screw to screw into. But since you have a mill, you may as well make it out of aluminum.

I use Stew mac and Jescar fretwire and don't have any problem.
I use a lead shot bag,but as was shown a sand bag would work equally well.

Over the face of an acoustic I use the fret buck or a lead block.

First order of business is to make sure the slots are a little deeper than the frets.

Then you need a saw to clean the slots that is compatible with the size of the fret.

Then there is the hammering technique... which is hard to describe (for me) but comes with practice.

Size your slot width correctly for the wire, even SW wire tangs vary quite a bit in width -check depth of fret slot is sufficient (SM Fret Slot Depth Gauge is ideal or make your own, or file the barbs off your wire)
Cut and match slot width to a section of old hacksaw blade to clean out old glue, gunk etc, for re-frets.(use a diamond plate or oilstone)
I use a neck rest, a simple 90 degree "V" on a block of hardwood with 4mm leather facing (a piece of an old belt), but have used a sandbag. and use something heavy, a lead weight for example (or shot bag) under the extension.
No way do you need anything like enough force hammering to dent a neck, and forget that lead block for support, even light hammering will dent the neck.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

thanks for the advise...

I just need a way to vary my fret slot width. I am using a japanese saw that cuts a kerf of more or less 0.5mm wide. But the japanese saw has this weird teeth pattern that doesn't lend itself for sharpening (teeth is REALLY fine and is much taller than standard sawtooth). But more importantly, I need a way to vary its set so I can vary its kerf as well.

I don't really want to barber the tang because I might grind the barb off, which could cause problems in the future with fret sticking up as it's not being held in with anything.

I wish there is a roller type thing that can re-form the tang.

The fret slot is MUCH deeper than the tang, but I usually put wood glue into the slot to help stabilize the fret in the slot.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

Instead of lead shot, shooters have been offered steel (or iron) shot. I realize this thread has gone past a 'shot' discussion, but perhaps someone else might find it useful.

_________________
Peter Havriluk

Is the lead lined in cork too?

You can set the teeth of the saw to widen the kerf. I changed my fretting technique many years ago by cutting wide slots and gluing them in. My glue of choice is fish glue. I don't cut them so wide that the tang doesn't bite, they still have to be hammered in, just not with as much force. For the frets over the FB extension I make the slots even wider so I can practically press them in. I have a saw for each operation with the teeth set for the slot width.

Seeing that in Taiwan guns are not allowed and very few people, if any, shoots (mostly recreational range or military/police), there is no legitimate reason to have lead shot in Taiwan, hence its low availability.

Can get steel BB's though for BB guns or whatever.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com

If your fret slot is less than 0.5mm (0,02") that may well be the source of your problem, it could be narrower than the tang.
You've probably answered your own question.

_________________
The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

+1 for Jay's suggestion about the use of a sandbag to support the neck shaft when hammering frets in. The sandbag I've been using for the last 20-some-odd years looks a lot like his:



My book Building the Steel String Acoustic Guitar also recommends the use of a yoga sandbag. These are cheap and readily available. They are double bags made of heavy nylon:



It is folded over for use so the zippers are on the inside:



The bags are filled with fine sand.

_________________
R.M. Mottola
LiutaioMottola.com

Author of the books Building the Steel String Acoustic Guitar and Mottola's Cyclopedic Dictionary of Lutherie Terms.

Tai, a fret barber does not remove the entire barb but just makes it a bit narrower. The fret still grips the slot just fine. It is a more simple solution than having a bunch of fret saws of varying kerf sizes. And it is easy to make your own barber by snapping off a couple of pieces of a file and putting a feeler gauge between them to customize the fit. You should give it a try before you dismiss it.

sand works well as a lead shot substitute. I hammer frets but to he honest. I hold the neck to fret . I found LMI fretboards better than SM and only use jescar fretwire
I use .0195 for first time fretting. .0205 is ok on refrets

_________________
John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it

The fret barber is very precise, so you won't grind the barbs off by accident. You clamp a feeler gauge inbetween the two files to set the width, pull the fretwire through a few times, and then test the fit in the fret slot. If it's still too tight, switch to a thinner feeler gauge and repeat. There was one kind of fretwire where I had to grind the barbs off entirely before it would fit, and for that I made a few divots in the tang with a dremel wheel for the glue to grip into. There's also a stewmac tool that crimps the tang to make it wavy, sort of like creating new barbs, but I don't have it. Frank Ford made his own version: http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Frets/D35Refret/D35refret4.html