Official Luthiers Forum!

Not going to lie. I get a little excited when I see you've posted on something. Even if it is only a few words.

When I first started in repair full time I used to get a little offended when people were as blunt with me as you are Chris. But then I worked the job full time for a little while and I realized that honesty wins the day every time. If you get offended then just "thicken up" as was said earlier.

Thanks for those who offered their input. I'm just going to leave this guy to his own devices and move forward. If the client comes by again I'll be sure to add him to the "too busy" list. Being nice has bitten me in this case.

The old adage ( nice guys finish last ) holds true in the geetar repair biz . Ask me how I found out ??

"The old adage ( nice guys finish last ) holds true in the geetar repair biz . Ask me how I found out ??"

I'll bite - how did you find out? It might be instructive for those contemplating guitar repair.

Without going into great detail, I ran a guitar/violin shop in Los angeles ca for 4 yrs. 1990 to 94 I had numerous dealings with folks from all over of the world. Since I speak several languages it was no big deal. The thing that struck me the most was that honesty with yourself and the clients is paramount.in running a successful biz. But even then, being assertive and saying no to some deals. is the best way IMHO . Having problems with saying no ? stand in front of a mirror and practice saying no to your clients who will offer you the deal of the century which comes around at least once a week . Learning to avoid clients , that have the potential to cause you problems now and down the road is imperative to ones success. Another, I found out that most of my competition carried inventory on 30 60 and 90 day notes . I always paid all my bills promptly. and never left a balance on anything. The previous owner left many bills unpaid. His reputation when he left, was tarnished.Paying on time opened up all kinds of deals. I accepted no credit cards. and took cash or checks with ID . Your experiences and mileage may vary depending on your location. By using cash or checks. I explained to my clients , that they were saving the 3 to 4% merchant fee by not using a credit card. PS I hope hesh or others chimes in to add some sagely advice.

Great advice sir, thanks for sharing.

Dan , your welcome . good luck with your repair biz . We wish you much success !

The definition of Tact : The ability to tell a person to go to H$$%$ in such a manner that they look forward to the Trip !

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Tell him apparently you're not smart enough to hire the better tech so maybe were just not a good fit. I never work for people who tell me they got some advice from another person. Most people believe the drivel they read online.

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For a business person it might feel good in the short term to tell people to "hit the road", but feels better when they realize you were right and you are taking their money.

Some people are not worth twice the money they spend...... and that is a hard business lesson to learn.

From a solely cost analysis of this situation a fret job was billed for. What can never be billed for is all the lost time, like talking to the client multiple times about the same job. Time spent uselessly talking to a shop across town and then dealing with his bad rapping you around town for stealing his work, etc...... How do you invoice for that? That was all time you could be working on projects that actually pay. So actually its a double loss...

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Agreed, some people are not worth fooling with.
Learning how to not get drawn into a time wasting 3 way conversation (tactfully) is also a good skill to master. For that matter, hob nobbing with a client too long beyond the time it takes to explain the work, write the order, and get their approval can be a waste of time for a busy shop.
I imagine Dan will think twice the next time he is asked to talk to a third party about a suggested repair. With a little tact he can deflect the request without wasting a lot of time or insulting the client.

I agree, with brian . Besides wearing our biz hats when clients visit us . We must also be adamant about not wasting time fooling around talkng drivel on the cell phone. Checking FB an social media. Especially in the luthiery biz time is money . The more time wasted , the less money earned . and yes I /m guilty of this too . Sometimes I get carried away with verbal diarrhea, and my wife keeps reminding me that I can talk the ears off a hound dog !!!

Keep in mind I wasn't asked to talk to anyone. He dialed the number on his phone and handed it to me. I simply played too nice and now it's bitten me.

If I want a suggestion on a repair I usually ask someone that is completely out of state. This gives better advice and eliminates any of the "you undercut me!" possibilities. It might sound pretentious but I've only ever asked one guy locally for advice, he is the exception and is a great person to work with and now. He build primarily so if I find someone that wants something done, I send them his way. And if he gets a customer who needs a repair done, he sends them my way. It's a great working relationship. I also keep working relationships (parts/supplies etc...) with as many of the local techs/luthiers as I can unless they've shown themselves to be unfriendly or are taking advantage of people's generosity.

I did not feel better about this job being done. I took his money but I would not be upset if he doesn't come back. The only service I'll do for this guy in the future is if I messed something up on the fretwork I did. Other than that, strictly business.

Our business is very fickle when it comes to even the possibility of another cook in our kitchen. If there is another repair person involved OR the client has notions as to how they believe the work should be done that are overly specific we tell them both to take a hike. I believe our web site even talks about we won't let anyone else tell us how to work but I'm not certain.

To be clear we spend a goodly amount of time and express a lot of concern (genuine) for our clients. It's not uncommon for a client picking up an instrument to give us a private concert for about 1/2 and hour which I love when It happens as we encourage them to put their newly repair instrument through it's paces. Other clients who come in during that period are always smiling too to hear the concert and sometimes meet someone who they are aware of but have never met.

We simply draw the line on our work and how and what we do is our business and no one else's. We are very open about sharing information we just won't let anyone else tell us what to do, ever.

There is a LOT of poor work out there and repair Luthiers come and go frequently, nearly as often as builders who don't make it. As such we have to have shields up for liability and reputation purposes every day. Just today, Monday we will have direct contact with 15 - 20 clients, have a half a dozen instruments picked-up and take in at least that many. We are too busy to let any trouble makers in the mix.

Last Friday when inquiring as to the humidity situation a Martin was kept in with a client from out of state on the phone he got frustrated when I offered that side cracks are generally, not always.... are not RH related. He said at that point that he thinks that I am an a-hole and I suggested to him that this is the first thing he's said in the entire conversation that we both can agree on. Next.

Anyway not to be too picky but "repairmen" or repair people ARE Luthiers and in many cases more experienced than most builders. Dave and I have built over 250 guitars collectively. In both our cases we got bored with the entire building thing AND the economics are just not there in terms of making a decent living at it. It was fun for a while though but we both lost interest.

So I refer to Luthiers who do repairs as either Luthiers or "repair Luthiers" since the definition of the word Luthier is someone who builds OR repairs certain instruments.

Sorry these two came your way Dan we have our share of them too. If you want I can give you a-hole lessons which might help you avoid them in the future?

In comparison, I work in collaboration with shops across the country on a regular basis. I have tools, skills and knowledge that the average shop just does not. They do the stuff they can and are comfortable with and I do the heavy lifting stuff like re-manufacturing pieces and parts, serious structural repairs or finishing.

In these instances I am a subcontractor and usually completely unknown to the end client. Dealing with another shop can be a real breeze.... they know what they need and what it should cost. I vet them much the same as any other client and as yet have no other shops on my "list". Some of these relationships with other shops have progressed to a point where they just outright recommend me to their clients directly for certain things.

Though I admit this is different than someone telling me how to to my job in the end every client dictates what the job is.... They decide what is to be done, if anything, and I decide how.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Sure, anything worth learning is worth learning. If you're ever down in Texas I'll take you for brisket and we can talk about being professional A-holes.

I feel sorry for the wait staff at that meal. "Who leaves a 4% tip???" "Probably a couple of professional A-holes."

The only thing I will interject into this thread is to beware of the tendency to wallow in your own greatness. The moment you do disaster is usually just around the corner.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

Deal, I love brisket mmmmm . Same goes for you Dan when you are visiting your family out this way let me know.

I agree wholeheartedly with Brian....

Do you really want to encourage the sort of customer that has the nerve to bring YOU work and then wants you to argue with another shop across town about what to do and how to do it.... If they want THAT FELLOW to do the work - take it to him and pay him

That said - this fellow may have been very dissatisfied with the other fellow's lack of fixing things... It may well have been a test run with you to see how your work went....

If the guy brings you more work (which if you did this work well - he probably will) - he may now be satisfied with his "Test run" with you and all will go well... If he wants to run the same game again - show him the door....