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Seems every other instrument including bouzouki gets lots of different woods, but mandos are always maple. Any particular reason? Does it actually suit the goals of a mando, or is it a case of 'I do it cause he did it'?

Haans will probably chime in with words of wisdom. But fwiw I have a very old Wasburn that is made out of rosewood and I made one modeled after it in mahogany. But they are not carved top too. The old bowl back mando's were not maple either.

I'll be interested in what Haans has to say but from what I've seen the majority of mando players are quite conservative in their tastes and value tradition highly. If it doesn't fit the Bill Monroe image, it's not up to snuff.

Weber used to make mandos with mahogany back and sides. I've even seen a photo of one that had koa back and sides and it was gorgeous.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

Martin flat backed mandolins had rosewood and mahogany backs (as did some Weymann mandos). They used the shorter scale (13") and "cranked top" most of the Neapolitan mandolins used.
Many of the Gibson mandolins are birch, not maple.

Bowl back mandolins are/were often made with rosewood and other woods. Seems the carved mandolins (especially those designed in the early 20's by Lloyd Loar with their graceful curves, F holes, and scroll motifs) try to emulate the great Italian violins. I've seen a lot of great contemporary violin makers building instruments from pear, poplar, and a few other choice woods; seems these would make good substitutes for maple on F-5 style mandolins too.

So little I know of the mando world...

"So little I know of the mando world..."

Just as well...mandolin players tend to be more persnickety than guitar players (maybe not quite as bad as - some - electric guitar players).

Well, I've got a project where the client will be more open minded, so that's a plus...

That has not been my experience in 30 years.

Bowl mandolins were usually staves of maple and BRW or walnut, flatbacks were mahogany or rosewood. Orville Gibson started making mandolin backs of maple and birch to emulate violins. At the time, mandolin orchestras were popular, so you can see his reasoning. Bill Monroe bought his Loar F5 from a barber shop for $200, and the rest is history. So, if you want to build mandolins, you want to build bluegrass instruments or you are limiting yourself.
The vast majority of mandolins that I built were F5's. They were as important to bluegrass as Dread-not guitars.

Building with maple backs has it's advantages. Most all maple mandolins were made with red maple. It is the preferred maple of Loars according to the late Charlie Derrington. By using red maple and red spruce, Loar mandolins could be copied. I also used German spruce and Italian spruce with red maple and you could really tell the difference between the 3 spruces. I also used other maples such as sugar, big leaf and Euro maple and you could tell the difference there too.

I did build a original once with Pink Ivory...

I'm going to be doing the simple bouzouki style body mando, that carving of the f5 style seems quite ambitious!

A builder has to REALLY make up their mind to build F5's. It's a huge learning curve even though there are CNC's available to help take some of the drudgery out of roughing out the plates. You really learn about tap tones though.

Keep us posted on your progress. Would love to see some photos!

Not all mandolins are made from Maple. I have used a variety of different woods, including Maple, but in the majority would be native Australian woods such as Blackwood, Myrtle, Sassafras, Queensland Maple, Queensland Walnut, Mountain Ash etc. There are hundreds to choose from. These have mostly been arch top A style mandolins, with a few flat tops. Tops have not all been Spruce. King Billy Pine from Tasmania can make mandolins that I think sound better than any Spruce. All these different woods have their own particular sound, and matching them to the various species of Spruces is a lifetime of work that I am halfway through. Note that many of the vintage Gibson oval hole mandolins had Birch for the back and sides and a mahogany neck.

Learning lots, thanks folks.

I have a bouzouki in the books, was going to make a flat top mando using the same shape...

It's traditional to make mandolins destined for the bluegrass market from the materials Haans mentions. It could be argued that they sound "right" but even more importantly, they are the materials the market expects. You can make the same instrument from other woods, but don't expect the market to react with as much enthusiasm as they do for red spruce and maple. The Bluegrass market is pretty conservative in its tastes. Those whose work sells for the most money in that world, use the materials people expect. Many makers like Peter, make superb work from other materials, but using "alternative" materials alone is enough to cut them off from the folk who spend the big bucks. That's fine. There's room for everyone.

Likewise, in the Celtic world (my niche) customers expect a mandolin to look a certain way and be made of certain materials, although they are becoming a little more flexible. But it has to be said, the price for reaching the top of the Celtic market is a pittance compared to what the Bluegrass market will pay.

The Irish bouzouki is a recent invention, but again, the market has in the past, preferred certain wood combinations. For years, customers only ever wanted Indian rosewood and European spruce for an Irish bouzouki from me. Occasionally cedar or redwood, but usually European spruce and always Indian rosewood. Now with CITES customers are becoming more flexible - they are open to other options. They don't want any possible hassle in the future. I make a lot from maple or wenge these days.

If you're making a flat top mando, you can make it out of whatever you like. They never sell for big money, and people after one are open to fresh ideas. If you're also making a bouzouki, my first thought would be to make them from the same woods as your client may be tempted by a matching pair...

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Nigel, share a pic of your Celtic mando?

You can see then all here;

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/instruments/mandolin/

F hole here -



Oval hole here:

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

My 1905 Gibson A has a cedar top. The back and sides are questionable, consensus on one mandolin forum seemed to be sycamore. Seems I read that early on, Gibson used all sorts of wood, probably based on what was available.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

Nigel,

May I ask the nut width on the f hole one? It seems quite wider than what I'm accustomed to seeing in a mando...and looks very comfy.

Looks like 34mm.
Nigel's site says "nut width: 8st 34mm 10st 38mm" for mandolin dimensions, but looks like a typo, 8st instead of 1st?

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

"nut width: 8st 34mm, 10st 38mm" is correct - my standard 8 string mandolins have a 34mm nut, the standard 10 string ones have a 38mm nut. Though they are often wider, depending on what folk want. The f hole one in the video might be wider still, I can't remember. Some folk want them narrow - 30mm. The Celtic crowd tend not to like the narrow Gibson style neck. Some do, but most don't. No idea why.

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

I'm sure that aside from Gilchrist (who's market is bluegrass primarily in the US) Australia has a different market, I know that the UK has a larger Celtic market, so those kinds of mandolins work, but here in the US, if you are not building F & A models you are really cutting yourself out of a huge part of the market. Try selling a Celtic at Christie's in Nashville. Probably do better in Canada with Celtic though.

Phil, I would really be surprised if that is a cedar top. Looks like spruce to me. Sycamore maple is a common term...

Isn't Duff still making F5's? If I recall correctly he's in Perth.

Australia has a pretty hopping bluegrass scene. Which I'm sure has the demand for good mandos and guitars that suit the genre.

http://australianbluegrass.com

Yea, forgot about Duff. Might be others too.
Phil, you have to take into account that I've been out of the business for 6-7 years now...

My work goes all over the world. But USA and the UK/Ireland make up about 80% of my order book, and that is split around 60/40 USA/Uk & Ireland. But I don't make that many mandolins. In the Celtic world, it's not as popular as other instruments just now.

There is no question - the big money in mandolins is in the US Bluegrass market. Everything else is small beans. But a decent living can be made at the cheap end too. People are still rather easily pleased in the cheap end of the market. And that's good. And by the cheap end, I mean the flat top/flat back mandolins. My work is at the top end of the Celtic market - carved top and back, but just now having moved countries (again) I making a batch of mando tuned ukes, nylon and steel stings. The only reason why I'm doing it is I'm still waiting for a lot of my stuff to arrive from Europe and I can make these things with few tools. Its fun. But I wouldn't exactly call it lucrative.




It's very humid here, so I'm finishing this pair with Japanese urushi. Urushi only cures in high humidity. This pic was after the first coats, the colour is gorgeous now.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/a- ... king-ukes/

Back to the thread - so, we've established that mandolins can be made out of anything, but if you're making for the US Bluegrass market, it better be made from the woods people expect.

So, question Meddlingfool - what you gonna make then?

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Dunno yet. Walnut is usually a safe starting point...