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Close is usually good, but if much force is required to bring the side into the mold, it's time to ensure that the wood does not exercise too much in the way of an independent bent. We usually correct the bends if there is noticeable asymmetry, more than 1/32" variance from the mold, or the side is kinked or has a lot of cross-grain ripple....with the judgement piece of this requiring an understanding as to whether a variance will manifest as a locally convex or concave side or other issue, which may complicate binding and finishing.

For outside mold systems, having most of the side in contact when the box is closed ensures the sides are aligned and not twisted in the vertical.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

The spreaders that go w the lmii molds are much longer... do they come out of the sound hole? It is I a take out before finishing the box thing?


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The LMII spreader and mold system does not allow the spreaders to be used when closing the box, although I assume shop-made spreaders which can be disassembled in the box and removed would not be too much of a chore to fabricate.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

Haans I don’t want to get into an argument here but surely we are making instruments for musicians. The primary focus must be on the right sound and playability. Appearance must come down the list.

I recognise that for people trying to sell guitars for a living appearance is vital. Many customers are going to start the judgement process on looks alone. But if the thing doesn’t play well or sound good then all bets are off.

And don’t get me wrong I do try hard to get the shape right, but don’t worry overmuch if it doesn’t happen.

And canoes, well I can take them or leave them!

Dave

While Mr. Matte clearly offered the "And hey, it's hand made." tag line in jest - and a very pleasantly pointed one at that - it surprises me how often the term is cited in all seriousness as a rationale for seeming lapses in craft, such as easily cleaned-up file marks on a bone nut, a poorly cut purfling joint, or an awkward bulge or hollow in a side. It seems odd that these flaws - apparently present on some maker's instruments as evidence of their exquisitely handmade nature - should be wholly absent from the work of other luthiers claiming an equally 'hencho a mano' origin for their offerings.

While we have argued the notion of what 'handmade' actually means both here and on other fora, and spent a good deal of time attempting to map the exact borders of usage, I have not seen anything close to a consensus on what handmade might mean in the context of our craft. That said, I am struck by the unanimity of thought as to what 'handmade' is not: an excuse for offering less than one's best effort and workmanship on every task attempted.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I am not a true craftsman that can go through a several month build cycle without introducing a few handcrafted flaws. All of my instruments have them, it is not a lack of best effort rather a refinement of my skills and the tools I have available. For example I will not throw out a body where I get a chip out on the rib side of a binding channel, rather I will do my best to fix it. I do have standards that are growing tighter, but they match my level of skill. I am not discouraged that my guitars are not as refined as some of the best, rather I am happy that I can make an instrument that people like to play, I take my experience and move to the next instrument.

Especially in my first few instruments and even now, I ask myself what is the likelihood of eliminating a flaw vs making it worse when I decide how to move on. I am rarely disappointed in my finished instrument, I have reach the point that they stay together and sound good but I have not reached the point where they are flawless.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

What he said ^^^^

I was the one in this thread who first used the term "hand made" in reference to imperfections. I think turning that into a statement that indicates it is an excuse to put forth less than best effort is a stretch. I will admit that I am incapable of making a flawless instrument but I don't feel like I am dragging the rest of the instrument making community down with me. Obviously there are a large number of men and women who are WAY ahead of me in many respects; I'm okay with that, I keep trying, I keep improving. If you expect perfection on the first instrument, you will never finish.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

"Best efforts" get closer and closer to perfection, but, there is no perfection in this "reality". That's why after 10,20, 50 instruments, you look at the first like it was a DUGOUT CANOE.
Done here...

Lol. Now my future self feels bad for the poor guy who got my first guitar. Hope he likes his canoe!


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Even Tony Stradivari had his "golden period":

Stradivarius golden period -
" The period from 1700 until the 1720s is often termed the "golden period" of his production. Instruments made during this time are usually considered of a higher quality than his earlier instruments. Late-period instruments made from the late 1720s until his death in 1737 show signs of Stradivari's advancing age."

Some of us are still in the bronze age.....

So in other words, you did the best you could at the time, and sought to improve on the next instrument? I'm not seeing any daylight between that and the quote you chose to use from my earlier post. It's not about flawless work - it's about caring enough to do your best work...whatever that might mean for you.

Finally...because we went there, using the term 'handmade' to describe the inherent nature of an artifact is in my view not even remotely the same thing as using 'handmade' as a rationale for avoidable lapses in workmanship.

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A constellation only takes shape when one maps the whole.
- Beth Brower

I felt a little bad using your quote as I do get the point you are making and do not disagree. Especially it's about caring enough to do your best work...whatever that might mean for you. I have found that the sentiment you expressed is sometimes interpreted as accept nothing but perfection, and I have watched many first time builders never move on from relatively small flaws.

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http://www.Harvestmoonguitars.com

The point you guys are all making is about doing your best. And I agree. One should do their best. As a beginner I can say that my best is always a goal, but my best is no where close to some other folks’ best in terms of workmanship. It isn’t because I don’t try or learn. It’s is because it is a process.
The difficult part is accepting one’s limitations in the moment and then, step by step, learning how to correct those limitations through whatever means is available.
For instance... this current build is very symmetrical however it doesn’t fit super tight in the mold. Through the process this will be my last guitar that doesn’t fit tight in the mold. Often the mistakes and imperfections we see are a result of decisions made several steps back.
I want to make lovely instruments that are invaluable tools in the hands of a skilled player. Making imperfect instruments, and learning from each one, is the only way evident to me to accomplish this.

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A few more thoughts on the current topic:

Yes, do your best, all the time. However, I do think that some folks get hung up on the guitar they are on (guitar #1, #2, whatever), and it gets harder to move forward, because they want it to be as good as it can be. I think the key to getting better at just about anything is to increase the frequency with which you do it. There are times when it is best to accept some imperfection in the current guitar, and move on to completion, so you can get moving on the next one, and the next one. I think a builder who has 10 slightly imperfect guitars behind her/him is probably a better builder than the builder who sweated over every flaw and has only made it to guitar #3. Those 3 guitars are still imperfect, despite all the care taken. Just my $0.02.

Another related question I sometimes struggle with is when to try to make a part work, despite flaws, and when to scrap it and start fresh. It’s a case by case thing.

Been doing this for 20 years
The trick to get a good fit to the mold is
1 use the proper spreader
I only use 1 at the waist that is designed to come out the sound hole
2 when trimming the sides you want to see them rise off the mold was you close it
then with the spreaders , they will help to set the sides against the mold closing those little gaps
3 I screw my blocks against the mold to control the neck block position you don't want that to wonder and it
replaces the long spreads
4 the way you trim your joints can cause gaping so be sure the joint is good. If your angled you will not fit in the mold

as much as I like lmi those spreaders are useless in construction of the guitar. You have to take them out when you close the box
if you accept good enough you will only be good enough do the best you can and strive to get better . After 240 guitars I am still learning

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John Hall
blues creek guitars
Authorized CF Martin Repair
Co President of ASIA
You Don't know what you don't know until you know it