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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:38 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Alan or anyone for that matter

I have been given somewhat of a challenge from a cabinetmaker friend of mine to build him an experimental classical from the basic shape and components I use to build a 000-12fret steel string. I know I can make this work mechanically. Part of the challenge is that I use an X-brace scheme and mortise and tendon neck joint. I can lighten up the top and bracing but I expect that the response to be heavy on the bass end and weak on the treble end. Any ideas as to x-brace modifications to aid the treble with such low energy strings. I am going to make this from some IRW and Engelman I have had around for couple years and never used. It will be straight forward no frills and I expect it to end up as merely a knock a round guitar. This is an off the wall experiment but my friend is paying me for cost of the materials and understands it very well may end up a dog, so what the heck. I will not be starting this till May, but will supply updates and pic’s as it transpires. The neck will be 1.88 at the nut. A little narrower than the typical classical neck. There is a longe story behind this challange That makes no sence, but has a lot to do with too many beers. Any way it is just one of those things 35 year long best friends get into.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 4:54 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I've often thought about this myself, but why use an X brace when the strain on the top doesn't justify it? Why not use classical guitar fan bracing to get the balanced response? I see no problem with a bolt on neck.
Look at Kathy Matsushita's site she built a bolt on neck nylon strung guitar, and details the process on her pages.

Kathy's weird classical

Colin

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 5:18 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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That is what I want I think as well. I'm going to try to keep Tommy a bit sober this weekend and try change the the parameters of the challenge. If I stay with x-bracing I figured I could narrow and shorten them by about 1/3 but I still think the bass would be over predominate. I think if I could keep the cost down that I could build a good student guitar from this method. That is one market potential I have not tapped around here. I hate to work with laminates but have more than just a few inquiries the last two years for moderate priced classicals. With all of my experience being in steel sting, in the past I have shyed away from these inquiries.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:00 am 
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Koa
Koa

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I know that Al had definately made nylon string X braced guitars. I think is famous "Autumn" guitar is basically a 000 body with nylon strings and an appropritate neck. The sound is very good.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:20 am 
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Koa
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Michael,
Keep us informed on this one. I like these types of experiments and have wondered how many of us have built trial guitars before and more importantly, what was learned.
On a related note, I’ve been meaning to try a build for the best response with lighter gage steal strings and wondered if a light x brace or a modified classical bracing pattern should be used.
Sorry Michael, I didn’t mean to jump on your question with another question.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:43 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Wade I would try to lighten up the X, tone bars and top


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:27 am 
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Michael--I'm no Al Carruth, but I do fit comfortably in the "anyone" category you mentioned. I have built one 000 sized classical. It was done for a customer who is a huge fan of John McLaughlin (sp?). Abe Wechter has built several large, 14-fret "classicals" for McLaughlin. Speaking with Abe about his efforts, he told me he's braced them both ways, X and fan, but prefers the X. The braces are much lighter than for a steel string, and from the high point at the cross, the brace legs taper straight out to nothing at the lining. That was his favorite bracing in this odd-ball hybrid. I used fan braces, with a curved transverse brace, a la Ted Davis. The guitar sounded great when plugged in.

Your project sounds interesting. Keep us apprised.Steve Kinnaird38407.6452314815

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:48 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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I to am a John McLaughlin fan. I think we are speaking of the same John McLaughlin of the Majavishu Orchestra (sp?) fame. Boy Does that ever date me.

The more I think on this the more I am thinkig of a light weight x where the brige is well inside the x, suppotred in a convintion classical bridge support system and light weight fan bracing below the brige. I like the idea of 14 fret neck. As soon as I finish the OLF SJ plans (this weekend come hell or high water) I am goinig to start the layout.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:55 am 
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Yes, and I should have added that Abe used 3 fans inside the X brace. They were notched to just ride over the bridge pad. I hope that makes sense....

Steve

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:04 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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perfectly clear. just as I invisioned


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 8:26 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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While I am and was serious about this challenge my friend Tommy set for me. I was looking at it as a box that would only fly low. But now I am kinda of existed. In fact I may change the Om I am currently working on. got think about that for a day or two. But I just might do that.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:09 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Whew, I knew I should have looked in earlier!

As Mike said, the 'Autumn' guitar on my web site(under 'New Work') is a 12-fret 000 with X bracing. I also built another about 4 years ago. Both used BRW for the back and sides, but the first one had a Red spruce top. When I finished it up I thought 'I'd like to hear that same guitar with cedar', so...

This is not such a 'weird' project. The 12-fret 000 was the last and largest guitar Martin designed for gut strings. The fact that X bracing proved strong enough that you could put steel strings on those fairly large boxes does not mean it won't work with nylon strings. However....

X bracing gives you a higher cross grain stiffness in the top than fan bracing does. One effect of this is to move the 'cross dipole' resonance mode of the top up in frequency. For reasons I don't want to go into at the moment (time) this seems to have the effect of increasing the mid-range output of the guitar. The sound is a bit more 'solid' and the mid-treble balance is different from that of a fan braced box.

The effect is exacerbated by the long 000 body, which is about an inch longer than most Classicals, and wider too. Longer bodies, all in all, tend to be more 'bass balanced'.

All this can give you that real deep 'Spanish' sound, but you have to be careful to get the trebles to come out well to balance all that bass. You're off to a good start with an Englemann top, which should be both stiff and light. I thought the Red top I used on the first one was maybe a bit too 'forward' at first, although I did not get a chance to hear it play in. The cedar top on the 'Autumn' instrument works well.

That guitar has a 'double X' braced top, with the X crossings at 90 degrees. You might want ot change that depending on the cross grain stiffness of your top. That top is a cose-grained and fine piece of cedar, and it's 2.7mm thick from the top edge to the bridge, and tapers down from there to about 1.8 at the tailblock. The bracing is Red spruce 1/4" wide, and it's 11.5mm high at the main X crossing, 9.5 high at the bridge line, 8.5 high between the bridge and the X, and tapers off from the high point at the bridge line to 1mm high at the bottom end. The upper end, above the main X crossing, tapers pretty smoothly to 5mm high at the inlet. The lower X is 1.5mm high where it goes under the main X at the bridge saddle line, 4.5 mm high at it's crossing, and tapers to nothing before it reaches the liners. I used a thin spruce bridge plate, even though I used a tie bridge. What the heck: nobody is logical all the time. The upper cross brace is 13mm high. There are two 'A-braces'7mm squre that go from the upper arms of the main X past the soundhole and _through_ the upper cross brace to inlet into the neck block. I hate when the neck shifts.... Top weight before gluing was 172.5 grams. I did not note the bidge weight, but suspect it is about 24 grams.

The rest of the guitar is pretty 'normal' except for the decoration.

The tone is, as I say, pretty deep, although there's enough treble and clarity to keep it from being 'tubby'. You can hear me attempting to play it on 'The Carol of the Birds' on my site (also under 'New Work': we gotta do something about that), but that may not tell you much. Aside from my playing I used my RadShack dB meter for a mic and recorded it on my computer through the Sound Blaster AWE32 card, so it's not exactly 'state of the art'.

If you wanted more treble you could substitute spruce (which you are doing), and taper the top in the wings of the lower bout, leaving it thick at the tailblock. A lighter Indian rosewood bridge might help, too. I can't say how it would work with scalloped braces.

Hope this helps.



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 9:18 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Location: United States
Thank Alan I knew I would here from you sooner or later. I keep you posted


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 10:25 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Michael...here's some wierd science you might use to tweak the treble--people smarter than I am have said that a smaller sound hole=more bass; a larger sound hole=more treble.

Remember, pretty much whatever you do, it's gonna sound like a guitar!

Carlton


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:55 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:38 pm
Posts: 1106
Location: Amherst, NH USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
[QUOTE=CarltonM]

Remember, pretty much whatever you do, it's gonna sound like a guitar!

Carlton[/QUOTE]

This might be the only universal truth in lutherie.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:44 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Carlton: your science isn't weird at all. The size of the soundhole effects the lowest resonance on the guitar, the 'main air' mode' , directly. Making the hole smaller drops the pitch of the mode, and making it larger raises it.

The effect on the percieved tone is not always that direct, though. A very small hole would give a very low air resonance pitch, but also a weak one, and if it's too weak you might not hear it: the tone could be 'thin'. As with everything, there's probably some 'optimum' size for the soundhole, and I'd bet that it's pretty close to the 'normal' one.

There are also about six other things that you could do that would enhace the treble, and each of them will have other effects, as will changing the soundhole size. That's what makes guitar building so much fun: it's not cut and dried.   


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:29 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

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Alan--"...not cut and dried"? Is that a pun (considering what we use to build 'em)?

Thanks for the theory behind soundhole size. I was, of course, only suggesting a minor tweak to its diameter for enhanced treble. The rest is up to Michael's artistry!

Carlton


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:39 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian
Old Growth Brazilian

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Location: United States
Aut ho......I got to go buy som artistry.......New I for got somthing


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