Official Luthiers Forum!

Question for those of you who have been building for a while...

Do you still do commission work, or do you just build and sell?

The reason I ask, is that the minute it was known that I was building again, I started getting requests. I've put them off for now, I need time to re-hone some of my skills, I'm still tuning tools up...

I ask because I've done a number of guitars on commission and never had a very good experience, did a fabulous fanned fret for a semi-pro who wanted all snake wood. The guitar turned out fantastic, but I spent a good deal of time tell him why I could not change this or that. He freaked out when the trim was first on and had not been scraped. It also added a ton of pressure and stress to the build, something which these days I really don't need.

After that I built around 8 on my own, picking everything and doing what I thought looked and sounded good. They sold pretty well (I sold the very last one about 2 years ago).

There is also the business side of commission, down payment, scheduling, final payment. At this point in my life, I'll just let my wife handle it

I'm not sure which way to go this time around, I *need* to build so either way I will be building guitars. I'm just not sure if commission is worth it anymore...

Thoughts?

Thanks
-Paul-
Patriot Guitars

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

We do both. Right now we're backordered quite a few months but if commissions (orders) slow down we just keep building. Eventually they all sell one way or another.

I've built guitars on commission, but only for friends and relatives. Even then I didn't start until every detail was set in stone. I would take a non-refundable deposit on personalized items on the guitar or strange request.

Then I built quietly, and once finished I presented it to them. I gave them the choice of take it or leave it, except for the deposit of course. If I could sell the guitar without changing the deposit item, I would refund that also.

Now I build mostly as gifts to family members.

After I retired from my regular job I built custom homes in the Carolines. Most were spec houses but even then someone usually wanted to buy them as soon as the framing was done. I learned very quickly what a pain 'owners' can be. If I ever build homes again they won't go on the market until the project is 99% done.

So, on commission guitars, I would only build if the owner could be kept on ice during the build. No photos or progress videos. My 2cents

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

plus 1 for make it and sell it. 1 of a kind commissions can be either a joy, or PITA it/s your call every client is unique. Be warey of the multichangers ,1 day it/s sideport, 2 nd day arm bevel, 3rd day cutaway, 4 th day new purfling etc etc if you get this client ,RUN.

"I gave them the choice of take it or leave it"

That's pretty much what I do to. If someone wants a particular instrument, and it's something I want to build, I'll do it at my leisure, and when it's done I'll give them "first refusal" (so far that hasn't happened). Otherwise, I just build whatever suits my fancy.
If you are in it for the money, you might be better off selling some of your stash - as you have noticed the prices of some sets have gone sky high, and with some of the new restrictions will probably go higher.

Most of the guitars I've built have been built to my preference and later sold to someone who liked them. Of course my prices are very low since I look at this as a hobby which pays for itself, but with that I have sold guitars at a reasonable rate. I have also done six or so commissions and have found they can be a lot of work, not to mention the stress of trying to meet someone's unknown expectations, so I have raised the price on each one to try to make it worth my time and stress. If you have the market at your desired price I would stick with spec guitars and enjoy the fun and the fact that the buyer won't have unmet expectations since they play before they buy.

Your enjoyment is certainly worth something.
Kent

Thanks for the responses, essentially your saying what I've been thinking.

If you want custom, half up front with NO refund. When it's done take it or leave it, no exceptions. Plus you must sign a contract locking you in, if I can't finish it you get your money back. But these are only at my discretion, I refuse to get backed up on orders, way too much stress...

In the meantime I'll just build stock to what I think is correct, and sell them as I go.

Thank you all

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

For the last 13 years I pretty much sold through kind of an iconic store in Minneapolis called The Podium.
I had previously done commissions and later ran all commissions through the store because I got tired of dealing with all the tire kickers that would run out an extended discussion on what they wanted and back out before crunch time. I was not a big enough hard ass to ask for cash on the barrel head before more than a superficial discussion.

Eventually I gravitated to selling off the wall at the store only. If a customer at the store wanted something I would build it and give them right of first refusal but keep it a model that would sell to anyone if they backed out. No personal appointments etc. That worked out great for me and sales were good. I never had a really bad experience with commissions though and made some good friends that way but I didn't like the pressure.

The Podium just closed it's doors for good after around 56 years so I am kind of in re-boot mode as well. Right now I plan to broker them through a private dealer in Minneapolis, sell off my website, and probably do a few commissions for selected musicians.

If I was trying to make a serious living at this stuff commissions would be necessary but you would have to be hard nosed about unrefundable money up front before any extended discussion and commit to delivering a quality product on time. Luthiers are a dime a dozen these days.

One caveat. Beware of the professional musician that asks for a very substantial discount in return for promoting your product. They may be a jaw dropping player and it may be an ego pumper to see them on stage playing your instrument and dropping your name but usually it does not translate into a business boom. Consider 15-20% for pros but no more.

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It's not what you don't know that hurts you, it's what you do know that's wrong.

I'm not yet at the point where I am selling any guitars I make, but I have thought a lot about this question. At its best, guitar building will only ever be a side thing for me; I make my living elsewhere. So, I need for guitar building to fit within the rest of how I live my life. I do it to enhance my life, not increase my stress level. My life is too short to spend it dealing with the problems associated with building on commission. So, it will only ever be "build it, then sell it" for me.

No commission's I'll build spec guitars, if you like it, we can talk. Locally a buddy of mine is dealing with a nightmare customer.......real pos, never!

+ 1 no commisions. Also the notion that you can have a take it or leave it agreement with a deposit involved is a slippery slope. True if the buyer simply changed their mind you could keep the deposit, but if the item does not meet the agreed upon specs I believe the deposit would have to be returned. $.02

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I prefer to build then sell but it's kind of hard to turn down a commission. It's not like I make my living doing this but still. What I found works for me is to start a photo album and document every process so that for example when you get to the bindings you can photo a few options and let them pick one and make sure it's the one they want.

In other markets where a commission fails (for whatever reason) I've seen where the deposit is kept until a time where the item sells to another buyer for the same or greater cost as the original commission. There is usually a time limit for waiting for a sale though. Just a thought that might work here if the agreement is written correctly.


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Insta - https://www.instagram.com/cbcguitars/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/cbcguitars

I've done one instrument on commission. Had an awesome customer but it was still stressful. Won't do it again. Now I'm making what I want and if someone wants to buy it, that's fine. Fortunately my shop moneymaker is setups and repairs so I don't really have to sell guitars. Plus I'm not doing it for a living.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I'm thinking to have two different prices. One for spec instruments and one about 20% higher for a custom build.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

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Pat

I built my first 60+ on commission but late last year I had to start slowing down because I just couldn't keep up. I have 19 on a waiting list now and I only build what I feel like building. I will send out a message just before I start with the guitars specs and offer it on a first come, first serve basis. Last one took me 5 minutes to sell. So now I build at my own pace and stress level has gone way down.

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"I've been had again"
Tim Benware
Creedmoor, NC

I built more than 200 mandolins (A's and F's) for over 20 years. Most all of them were on commission with 5% for the contract (non-refundable), 45% on start and 50% + shipping when done. Any changes could be made up until the day I started cutting wood with both agreeing. Never had a problem, but when I got sick of it, I still had a 4 year backlog. Those were the hardest 4 years I spent. By the time I was done, my nerves were shot. That's when I told myself never again would I take a commission. After that I built guitars mostly and enjoyed the process much more. I never took another commission...like Terry Kennedy, I sold them on consignment at the now defunct Podium.

I guess I didn't understand what you meant by "commission". I feel like anytime someone requests a guitar be built, that's a "commission". Sometimes our customers want something unusual and we are happy to work with them but there are lines that cannot be crossed and I've turned down many "commissions" because I simply won't build something that I don't like or think is stupid (for example guitars with peculiar woods or mismatched panels like the so called pinto guitars etc.). We always charge a non-refundable deposit on orders (commissions) to cover the cost of materials and have never in over 50 years of building felt the need to make a choice between making or denying the refund of a deposit. I guess we've been lucky but there's always a first time. Guitar making is not a good profession for the faint of heart or anyone who requires fiduciary solvency.

Paul I think what's most important to you is the "Stress Factor". Stress will eventually wear you down and may just kill you. After having a heart attack strees is the last think you want. Build what YOU like and try to find an outlet to sell to. The few commissions I've had were extremely stressful. Never again. Some people can handle it better than others.

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Beautiful and unusual tone woods at a reasonable price.
http://www.rctonewoods.com/RCT_Store
The Zootman
1109 Military Rd.
Kenmore, NY 14217
(716) 874-1498

Nearly every one of the 220+ guitars we've made in the past 4 years has been a commission, the exceptions being the few we occasionally build for shows or to try out new woods, which usually get picked up by our dealers in fairly short order.

The idea of spending all the material and labor now to get paid for at some nebulous future time doesn't work for me.

When I had a job and did this as supplemental it was ok, but now that it's how we scratch out a very meagre subsistance, when the work is done, we need to get paid.

As well, the process of dialogue with customers to find their needs and then fulfilling that need has been enormously educational, and our success rate is very very high. Being able to consistently provide according to demand has been and still is very demanding but rewarding.

That's my Wife's take, I'm just about finished with these desks, but they have stressed me out constantly, partly because I work and build so progress is slow.

I may move to a model where if someone wants something, we negotiate on the wood, and I give them first dibs before I sell it. I'll keep them under control, no African black wood or some super exotic tone wood. I already have a pretty big stack of some really good tone wood, so I can just choose from that...

Thanks Bob and everyone else...

No more heart attack nonsense, once was enough

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-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

"When I had a job and did this as supplemental it was ok, but now that it's how we scratch out a very meagre subsistance, when the work is done, we need to get paid."

That is probably the essential difference between the professional and amateur. And the added stress is what makes it "work".


"no African black wood or some super exotic tone wood. I already have a pretty big stack of some really good tone wood, so I can just choose from that..."

That sounds like a good plan. I think it's less stressful to build with what I have on hand. At some point we have to start whittling away at our stash and recouping what we have already "invested" in this endeavour .

I do both. I take commissions and build what I like for my own enjoyment. The enjoyment comes from trying new things and that is how the improvements come, and keeps up my interest in the job. However, I need to be paid and the new things don't always sell quickly. Some do, and those are what I keep making and are the future commissions. Commissions can be stressful, but they are guaranteed income and pay the bills. I don't particularly like them because they are no where near as much fun as the latest and greatest ideas, but they are essential. At one time I had 3 years of backlogged mandolin commissions, and that is something I don't want again, but at the time it did me through the GFC when sales were non existent.

Long post here, but please, wade through it!

Do what suits your personality. If you are doing this for a living, both approaches are valid, both have pros and cons. Either way, you need to understand marketing and selling these days in what is very much, a saturated market.

One by-product of an over saturated market is the demands of buyers naturally increases, as does the tendancy to "have their cake and eat it." If you frequent player forums, you'll see, many fully expect to to commission a project and then back out without comeback at any point. No use it getting cross about this, it's just one of the things that happens when supply outstrips demand. I'm coming uo to 30 years of professional making and it's only two years ago that I started to have a formal agreement with customers who commission. And it was a response to a changing market. It just hadn't been required in the past.

Make life easier for yourself: Learn how to deal with enquires: Have a routine you go through - for instance, if someone emails me and has a whole list of questions, before addressing any of their questions I send them a price list first. It saves me spending half an hour answering questions when my work my be out the person's price range. Which it should be for the majority of people who contact you. If it isn't your pricing may be wrong or your marketing is reaching enough people.

Then, having seen the prices if they still have a few simple questions, I answer them. If the questions lead to yet more and more questions, you may have a tyre kicker on your hands, or you may have someone who needs a lot of reassurance. Either way, at some point you have to stop answering questions and say - "if you are serious about commissioning my work, you need to send me a deposit." Then I send them a copy of the agreement. If they are serious, they order, and we go more into detail about what it is they want. To do this - to stop answering questions and "walk someone down to the till" is easier if you are already "established" and have a "brand" of sorts, which I do. If you are just starting out, building and selling may be a better way to go, and allow you to practice dealing with enquiries in a way which causes you less stress and sorts out the serious from the non serious..

Another thing you might want to consider is your right to cancel an order. I've had to do it myself a couple of times. Sometimes you might take a commission from a person who is very pushy, very demanding and wants more and more of your attention without seeing it from your point of view. Ironically I never came across this type of customer until I started making cheaper work. I had a very difficult chap a few years ago. He was trying to change the nature of the "handshake" deal we had, it was causing a lot of stress. I asked a good friend who was much more experienced in negotiating than I for advice. He asked me a simple question:

"Can you afford to do without their commission?" Then he said "If you can, do without them as quickly as you can. Hand the deposit back. If you can't, then suck it up and know the next time."

Good advice.

Interestingly after a couple of difficult people, I realised the question should be rephrased - "Can I afford not to cancel this customers commission?" You have the right to draw a line. Some makers are not suited to taking commissions, and some customers are not suited to commissioning instruments.

You can of course, avoid all this stress my making and selling. There is a lot to be said for it. But if you take this approach you must be willing to pay a salesman a good chunk of the retail price to market and sell on your behalf. Or you must invest time and energy in marketing and selling your work. Possibly the most cost effective way to do this is to run a repair shop. Then people will quite literally walk through your door. And whilst they are waiting to pick up their guitar, they can play yours....

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nigel

http://www.theluthierblog.com

Never did commissions and turned many of them down not wanting some yahoo to ever have any impact on my enjoyment or creativity. I also had a huge revulsion to having to look at someone else's idea of what a guitar should be for well over 100 hours....

What I did do is build what I wanted to build, what was next in my development as a Luthier and then hang them in my repair shop.

What would happen next is repair clients would see the guitar(s) on the wall and ask to play them. The next day I'd get a phone call and they wanted to bring their spouse by to see and hear it. Next there was a check written or credit card offered and the guitar was gone.

This exact scenario happened dozens of times and I'm not known for pricing low either..... I'll add that I never advertised, never exhibited at shows and always strived to keep my costs down.

I'll also add that we're in touch with many very well known Luthiers in private conversations that the public never sees. Commission nightmares are VERY common to the point that I might call issues with commissions par for the course.

Buyers frequently attempt to take advantage knowing that a builder is financially exposed with sunk costs, time invested, and often something personal on the commissioned instrument that makes it difficult to resell to someone else when.... or if.... the deal goes south. It's also very common for one of the reasons that someone wants to commission an instrument is that they want some weird-arse configuration that they can't commonly find. From nine strings to 2.5" wide necks builders are asked to assume great financial exposure and risk to attempt to please what are often folks who can't be pleased or are clueless in their own understanding of how a guitar works.

With all of this said all of the instruments that I sold are still with the original buyers and in most cases coveted.... and well cared for. All my clients pretty much receive repairs and adjustments for life too on the house because I wanted to know how my kids are doing AND I enjoy my clients very, very much. So far only one lifting bridge after a Nashville studio musician left his Heshtone in the trunk for a week in the summer.....

At the end of the day my clients knew in advance what they were buying and no guessing was required on the part of anyone. When an instrument left my charge I was fully compensated (personal checks had to clear before the instrument left Heshtone Global Headquarters....).

Lastly consider what a commission actually is. It's selling "futures" or more specifically what is not real or tangible yet.... Stuff happens.... people get sick, life's events, moving, etc. Lots of reasons why promises to excrete something in the future my not come to pass.

On the buyer side their life may change, deaths, divorces, job changes, great recessions, etc. are all reasons why someone may have to back out of a $5K or more purchase.

Folks who take on commissions also can't usually guarantee what an instrument will sound like either and we all now how very subjective tone can be.

Last week we had a Luthier A list instrument just received in for evaluation and it sounds like absolute crap.... The client was not pleased and paid $15K for it.... They wanted our opinion as well. At the end of the day the only thing that separated this guitar from perhaps a more responsive instrument for 1/8th the price was the builder's name. Our mutual client is going to sell it and try to recoup most of their losses.

This is yet another example of rampant dissatisfaction with commissions that we frequently see with buyers. Be aware as well that these days unhappy clients take to social media.... and that can destroy your Lutherie career before it even starts in earnest....

With all of this said consider NOT doing commissions and instead building what you are interested in and then finding a venue to sell them. Terry Kennedy and others use quality music stores. I used my repair practice.

Long ago in another land I had a girlfriend who was fond of saying:

Some will,
Some won't...
So what,
Next......

Thin skin and financial exposure are not conducive things for Luthiers to have. Selling commissions is a great way to make one hate being a Luthier.... IME.

EDIT: Wanted to add that the competition for commissions is fierce as well. You can't swing a cat these days without hitting a builder and please don't tell PETA the PITA that I said this.... A great way to smash through the competition is have something tangible and real available for immediate gratification and sale. Folks respond well to what they can hold, play, and take with them.......