Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello, I have a question about my ESP LTD 100M lefty guitar. I've owned it for many years, but I've never been satisfied with its intonation from the day I bought it. It was my first Floyd Rose, and for the longest time, I just thought I was tuning it bad. Finally, I decided to try and intonate it myself, and I've found that I've had to put all of my string holder blocks on the bridge in the second peg, where most then intonate correctly, but a couple need to go back further than they can in order to intonate properly. I am a bit confused as to how this passed QA initially, but at this point, I'll just settle for fixing it. What is the best way to get this fixed? Does the whole bridge need moving back (I imagine this to be ugly)? Or can the neck be extended by like half an inch?

I'd take it to a qualified Luthier for a set-up.

It's unlikely that poor QC created a scale length error of that magnitude and typically these have pretty decent build quality. Floyd's are also a real PITA and if not perfectly adjusted can throw off intonation for every string.

There are many other factors too that all influence, for better or worse, intonation. From jumbo frets with an incompatible grip to the locking nut being likely WAY too high all these things can cause string stretching that need not be happening.

The strings you use also dictate to some degree where the specific "speaking lengths" need to terminate or, in other words, saddle locations.

Many people shred with these and as such want uber low action. The fret planes are IME generally pretty good. Very low action and the proper "touch" should not contribute to intonation problems but very high action and the death grip one employs to over come the discomfort can contribute to intonation problems.

It's likely one major thing and a host of set-up tweaks will systematically dial the ax in until you're thrilled with it.

Anyway that's what a decent set-up should do and these kinds of things really benefit from eyes on, in person attention. Don't be surprised if you are charged a small up charge because of the Floyd. It's a common practice and justifiable as well, Floyds and licensed Floyds often require optimization as well that the f*ctory didn't do. They also can be made out of junk metal and very subject to breaking.

Thanks for the reply Hersh. I've been considering taking it in for a while, I just wanted to get an unbiased opinion on it first. I've successfully done intonations on my other guitars (though, none have a floating bridge), and I can honestly say I've never had as much trouble with setting it up as I have with this one. It's nearly sworn me off floating bridges, but I've decided to get it perfect working order first before passing judgment.

If, based on my description, I were to hand my guitar to you and you were to set it up as you mention, how much would you charge me for it, ballpark? I realize that's a loaded question with still not enough detail to really get an accurate estimate, I just honestly have no idea how much something like this costs, so I'm just trying to get a feel for what an expected price range for something like this would be?

If you brought me your Floyd Rose equipped guitar for a setup and intonation, I would require a new set of strings of your choosing, and $25. I can do it cheaply because I moved my shop home years ago. Might take about an hour, barring any other problems encountered.

Floyd's are one of the biggest PITA's ever perpetrated on the guitar playing public.
Poor design, poor production methods.
If Van Halen had never played one it would be a footnote in history.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

While I agree they can be a PITA, I got a strat shipped in one January. No case, set crossways in a cardboard box. Pulled it out and put the tuner on it. The silly thing was within half a mark on my Snark of being dead on. FWIW,YMMV.

Thanks for the reply Chris! That's cheaper than I would have guessed (with my shot in the dark)! Granted, you said you could do it cheaper. Does that mean a more likely going rate from the average decent luthier might be more like $50-ish?

I have heard from many it's a PITA to setup, but that once done so, they generally do very well at staying in tune. I've gotten that impression even from mine--it stays consistent in how off it is in intonation/tune

Mark our biz, Ann Arbor Guitars does not accept shipped in work so we wouldn't do a set-up for you unless you were local and we have the ability to interact with you in person. I often want to see a playing style when someone wants a set-up that's a bit on the edge meaning very low action or special, non-standard strings, etc. We also ask all of our clients to try out the instrument when they are picking it up to be sure that they are thrilled.

Chris's pricing is excellent especially for a Luthier with his decades of experience. Chris please raise your price.

Allan your post seems a bit off topic. My impression was that the OP was asking about setting up a guitar that is out of spec not receiving one in the mail that is in spec. Did I miss something?

Floyd's require all things to be nearly spot on or their angle will change. Something that we see every day is someone puts new strings on it and even a brand change, without even a gauge change can cause the trem to be out of adjustment and adversely impact action. Then there are the clients who thought that restringing was an opportunity to clean up and polish their ax so they take all the strings off at once.... These are the folks with the most colorful language and can be a bit short of breath too when they get to us since the floyd basically comes apart and they can't get it back together....

Trems in general leave a lot to be desired and if you are not using one I would avoid one.... Even on Strats we will often set them flat once the client is informed that this option exists and that can greatly improve tuning stability. Dives are still possible but swells are not.

Chris is right that Floyds are one of the worst thing ever done to guitar players and I'll add to those of us who toil endlessly by candlelight with sharp chisel in hand to keep them playing... No wonder some folks are making music on a stinkin..... IPad... these days....

Set up cost will vary by location, type of shop and what is included. I charge $15 extra just for Floyd style saddle intonation. Once I tell people about blocking the trem, they always want to do it. I would charge an extra $30 to work on an unblocked floyd, but my base price is low.

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Pat

Hersh/others, I didn't mean to mislead, my initial question wasn't about actually asking if you'd take my guitar, I just was asking hypothetically to see what kind of ballpark figures you guys would charge, since I had no idea/concept of what a decent price for this work would be. My intention (if going to a luthier) was always to go local to Atlanta, GA (shipping rates for a guitar are not cheap anyways).

Why don't you guys tell me how you REALLY feel about Floyd's? LOL. I wouldn't want to block it in my case, as I already have another guitar with a tremolo that isn't floating bridge. I got this one specifically for the floating tremolo so I could do swells. What struck me was that I've never experienced my particular guitar correctly intonated. From the day I was shipped it, it's been funky. I did take that opportunity to change out the strings, and have pretty well disassembled my Floyd, but managed to put the whole thing back together. Even got the bridge at the proper floating height again, with it in tune. Just could never get it intonated right. I will admit, I am not a man of many colorful words, but the experience certainly drew a few from me.

OK, I will. I was already at the bench a few years when the Floyd Rose was introduced to the market. The buzz was that this was Van Halen's secret. The rep brought one around to get some orders, and I eyeballed it for quite some time. Please understand my background training was as a tool & die maker - sort of a super machinist. I took it apart and made measurements, and finally asked the rep if this was the prototype, and would the final product be a better design with better machining? He was pretty goggle-eyed at my question, as most folks just went gaga for the thing as is. I mean - the great Eddie Van Halen used one, and that was good enough for most folks.

Over the years their basic design devolved - not evolved. Production values didn't improve, either. I had 3 on my bench once, and took them apart to compare. You would think you could reduce them to parts, mix them up, and reassemble in any order. WRONG. The individual saddles were not consistent in dimensions. The locking nut had no string height adjustment, so proper installation was absolutely key. Big variation between locking nut dimensions, too. Locking tuners were the real answer, but they hadn't been invented yet in the 80's.

Floyds are just a colossal mess to work with - they are a crude machine mounted on a guitar. It's a balancing act to get them working right, and some folks don't have the patience for it. Kahlers are better made and designed in my opinion, but they work differently and sound different from a Floyd or stock Fender unit. These days, I recommend locking tuners and a Wilkinson. Properly set up, they work great for most players, unless you crush divebombs and extreme vibrato noises ala Vai and others.

If you can find them, I wrote a series of articles for Stringed Instrument Craftsman on vibrato system installation and maintenance back in the 80's. I covered stock Fender whammy stuff, Floyds, and Kahlers. It was published by Guitar Player magazine for repairman. Now I think the Association for Stringed Instrument Artisans has them (aka Guitarmaker mag). Dan Erlewine referenced them when he first published his guitar repair book. I haven't looked to see if they are mentioned in later editions of the book.

Here's something I mentioned in my articles that most people never figure out. Floyds - the string is locked at both ends, and the string length never changes, only the tension changes when whammied. The harmonics remain stable. On Kahlers - the string is locked at one end, and the string length increases when whammied. The harmonics keep moving on the string....

I could elaborate for hours why Floyds are a big tone suck, and Kahlers are to a degree.... but why bore you?

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Great post Chris!!! You'll never bore me, you guy who have been in the trenches for a long time are my heroes! I just marked my first decade in the trenches with baptism by fire. BTW Dave's background is machinist as well.

Mark good job getting it back together and I see that you completely understood the colorful language reference...

We only charge $10 additional for work on Floyds and often forget to even do that. We have proprietary methods that were developed by Dave Collins that we use in house. It's not developed for prime time so no pics will be offered, please, but you also know us to be very generous with our IP when it is presentable.

In a nutshell we can lock a Floyd in place, have our way with the guitar.... and then have it perfectly level when all is said and done. That's why we only charge $10 additional (when we remember) but hey I like Pat's idea too.....

Of course there are many variants of a Floyd and they are not all the same these days but I agree with Chris, the machining that I've seen has been nothing short of garbage. You also have to be careful tightening adjustment screws because this pot metal can strip very easy.

For intonation I keep the nut unlocked and for some strings where there is more tension may detune, push the stinkin string aside, move the saddle in accordance with what my strobe told me, retune and measure again. Even this part is a PITA with a Floyd because the genius, probably some guy named Floyd.... who designed the thing has the stinkin string right in the way of the saddle position adjustment.....

One area where I have yet to EVER see a Floyd set-up done well is the nut. They are always too high or the compromise that we must make because of the lack of individual slots like a conventional guitar is favoring what it should not be. We use dial indicators to check what is, remove nut, true up nut channel, measure what is again, take the nut to the belt sander with a cup of cold water and the dust collector off, sand the bottom where it needs to be lowered, dunk in cup, dry and trial fit and measure again until our nut slots are optimal. Be sure to keep the dust collector off so you don't send sparks into your bag of dust and burn your building down.....

It should be mentioned too that there is a profile of who plays these kinds of instruments and they are often shredders. These folks like uber low action AND are known to want to tune as low as C.... Clearly this is problematic for any conventional six string and we can get things close but rarely perfect since the scale length as manufactured is too short for Low C.

My post referred to the PITA. Yes, they are a pain, but if it can hold tune from Chicago to Wichita in and uninsulated box, in January, there must be something to it.

Wow, I was just being facetious with my comment, but I really appreciate the stories! I'm curious if you still find their machining quality to be as bad as when you first saw them? I would think, in this day and age of CNCs and laser cutting, that at least SOME manufacturer of Floyd-licensed bridges would have very good tolerances in their machining?

Thanks Hersh, it took me far longer to put it back together than I'd like to admit, but that I did still seems to merit some recognition of achievement, lol. Although, I was also doing a swap out of my pickups as well-- took my EMG 81/85 setup from another guitar and transplanted it in this one, so that significantly increased my rebuilding the Floyd's time. I don't recommend that with a pencil soldering iron from Radio Shack!

For what it's worth, I have a variety of styles I go with, a lot of Vai inspiration, with mainstream metal (Metallica, AC/DC, etc), to blues, classic rock, and even an odd branch into Spanish classical. I tend not to deviate from standard tuning; I do have friends who like to go crazy with their tuning, delving into obscure tunings with their guitars, but I generally find I have plenty to keep me busy in EADGBE.

Most folks WOULD think that. But machines aren't perfect, and the people who use them have sloppy work habits. THAT'S the real problem. If you have a production tolerance of plus or minus .010 you can have a "perfect" part per inspection, but in the real world - when the luthier is trying to set up a guitar, and he or she needs plus or minus .005 to produce a perfect setup, then the part falls short of perfection, does it not?

This goes back to design.... If Floyd had bothered to make individual height adjustment on each string, lack of production tolerances wouldn't be such a problem, and far fewer cursewords would have escaped my lips. No adjustability means production tolerances MUST BE PERFECT. And producers of any Floyd Rose products just don't give a rat's hindquarters.... because the darn things will sell anyway. SO AGAIN, I curse the day Eddie Van Halen ever heard of Floyd Rose.

In a Guitar Player mag interview back in the day, even Eddie admitted it had limitations - he said, and I quote, "I hate it, and I don't".

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Hey Mark,
If you expect to walk in to a good repair shop with your guitar and have it set up for $50, you'll be disappointed. Around $100 would be more in line with todays prices. Chris is an anomaly, don't expect finding another with his skills charging at his rates to be an easy task.

Steve

Steve, that was the point of this post--I didn't have any realistic expectations on what it would cost. I was quite surprised at Chris' price. But ultimately, I wanted to have good expectations for when I started getting quotes from local luthiers.

I'm supposed to be retired, but people keep calling me.... and calling me....

I'm a cheap date, I guess.

If I still had the shop - yes, $50 for setting up a Floyd. But I live in Kansas, where most folks are sensible.
On the coasts.... who knows?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

A related discussion is not just picking on Floyd Rose trem, the variants, the licensees, etc. but what else in the guitar world is made like crap or has poor design. More specifically who didn't really "get it..." when they introduced a product that we all use or know of these days.

There is a LOT of this in the electric guitar world and even some in the acoustic guitar world. Even very responsible brands produce mistakes... from time to time.

One very well known such mistake or perhaps more correctly described as an omission was done by a master of manufacturability who did not quite.... understand the physics of a guitar before he went ugly early.... (brought product to market with bugs...). Our pal Leo taught the world how to manufacture an electric guitars inexpensively AND out of standard, lumber yard.... pieces of lumber. His bolt-on necks, single coil pups, simple but sexy designs, and signature sounds brought us Hendrix, Clapton and a host of giants who ruined.... er... I mean positively influenced our lives for decades to come.

What Leo did not understand though was that the standard piece of lumber when used for a bolt on neck does not have sufficient break angle.... Hence the work around of a string tree and later the work around of a second string tree and then even tuner manufacturers getting in the "let's finish Leo's design" game with low profile and locking tuners.

He only missed it by that much though and Fender's bolt-on neck likely made it possible for many of us to be able to afford to learn to play an electric guitar. My first "real" guitar was a white Fender Mustang.

Also, and I am digressing but I'm a morning person who will usually shut the hell up by 6:00PM.... even though many Floyds are made like crap.... there are after market upgrades for when the manufacturers missed it by that much. For Jag, Mustang, Jassmaster fans that lousy, flimsy original bridge can be replaced with a $175 after market "Mastery" bridge that is almost too pretty to put on a stinkin guitar....

Anyway one's person's short coming in manufacturing or design is another person's opportunity provided that our market, guitars continues to grow. These days I am most concerned about the folks who want to play Smoke On the Water on a stinkin iPad.... They have no soul......

Also Steve's pricing estimate is very true for us too, thanks Steve!!!

Our set-ups are instrument dependent meaning we won't work on the trem on an acoustic guitar that does not have one...

But if this guitar was on my bench here's my approach to an Ann Arbor Guitars set-up for $95 plus strings if it has a Floyd and this includes the $10 premium for my swearing...

1) The fret plane is cleaned, frets are polished, maple boards are degunked with naphtha which won't hurt the finish and polished with quality, no silicon polish. Rosewood boards are cleaned and conditioned with Howards and the frets are polished as well.
2) Tuners are serviced, tightened, lubed if they can be, and a stray tuner shaft that got bent when the girlfriend slammed the door on the ax might get straightened as a freebie because we can....
3) All structural nuts and bolts are snugged including neck bolts if present.
4) Input jack is tightened (they are ALWAYS lose...) and cleaned of corrosion.
5) All electronics are cleaned and lubed and tightened if need be, and checked for proper function.
6) Moving parts such as saddle adjustment screws are lubed.
7) Truss rod nut is removed, lubed, and replaced and inspected for how well and where the rod works.
8) Small imperfections, label gunk, white paint from hitting a wall, what ever I can help with is fixed as a freebie because I can.
9) The entire guitar is cleaned very well and polished. Folks usually love this except for the guy who got mad at us for cleaning his pre-war Martin that he wanted to be dirty as all hell on the album cover that was shot the next week. Some of our clients are famous people and then can be picky I tell ya...

Folks think that I clean their guitars as a value add but I clean their guitars because they are slobs and I don't want that dirty thing in my lap when setting it up until it's deloused.... Felix Unger Lutherie here.

10) Now... the set up begins...... with a mental plan - really! My approach is calculated based on the instrument.
11) Truss rod is adjusted for optimal relief or what ever the neck is capable of....
12) Nut slots are individually optimized or in the case of a Floyd the system is optimized usually meaning greatly... lowered
13) Trems are set to spec or flat what ever the client wants.
14) Action is set to client preferences PROVIDED that the instrument is capable of this without limiting factors such as lousy fret work, a kick up on the extension, loose frets, etc.
15) Intonation is set in the playing position with the clean ax in my lap...
16) The guitar is test played with full bends, every single fretted note simulating the attack of the owner. This can be a sore point in shops because we Luthiers tend to play the same tunes over and over again and annoy the hell out of each other.... It's forbidden to play stairway in our shop BTW.....
17) Guitar is but pack in vice and every strings are stretched twice (the strings have been replaced, we insist on it). We stretch them so that having to retune is not as much of an issue. I likely get 80% of the stretch out of the strings except on classicals which take all stinkin day.... and then some to stretch completely.
18) The bill is completed (my favorite part...)
19) The guitar is placed back in it's case with the bill.
20) Client is called and told to get down here and get it or I'm going to sell it to a homeless person (kidding of course.... we do donate guitars though to homeless people when the guitar has been donated to us for this purpose). We donated a guitar last week to a very shaky young man who served in Afghanistan and was in town for the VA Hospital, we owe these folks everything! Dave also called ahead and arranged for the young man to have a nice lunch on the house at a recommended sandwich shop. Don't tell him I told ya but Dave Collins is one hell of a good man!

That's what you get at Ann Arbor Guitars for $85 for a regular guitar and $95 for a Floyd equipped guitar.

Now there is more too, seriously. If a strap button is loose or stripped we are happy to turn on our lathe a matching wood plug, mahogany, maple, what ever, plug and redrill and install. Simple things that the thing may need we usually just take care of without being asked because again.... we can.

Value has a lot of meaning to us in our business and we will always error if we have to error in the favor of the client. It's worked very well for us and as such we continue to grow and live well and prosper..... Attribution to Capitan Spock

‎Thanks for the posts Hesh!
Great check / sequence list.
Only thing I take issue with is Spocks rank. He was ‎Lieutenant commander. Pure logic has it's limits

Lately I've had a run of acustics with nut break angle problems. I wish break angle got a little more thought at the design stage.
The break angle should function with monster tall frets all the way down to ones filed to the nub. It's no bigy for me to smoke 1/2" of .E string wraps onto a post with a 2000rpm driver but I hate having to tell a customer they must do it when they change strings manually. (acustics don't look to good with string tree's added)

Wow, thanks for the detailed post Hesh! That level of detail and attention, I almost wish I was in Ann Arbor to take it to you! I think that list will be very helpful when asking around on what the local luthiers will do/charge.