Official Luthiers Forum!

I have now finished all of my current building projects and have need to plan my next set of instrument. I'm pretty set on building another Lute probably an 8-course (pics of the new 10-course coming soon to a forum near you!). My second instrument will be a copy of a 1700 Stradivarius 5-course guitar - yes he did make guitars! The Royal College of Music Museum in London has an original and David Hume the resident luthier has said that I can take measurements from that.

What I need advice on is my third choice, a 12-string Parlour guitar (it doesn't sound so silly if you call it a 6-course parlour guitar!). I currently don't have a 12-string and have had a sudden urge to rectify the situation.   I would like a parlour so that it is easy to sit in an armchair and give it a gentle tickle, and I want the challenge. I have never noticed a great difference in volume between the parlour and my largest sized 000/OM bodies.

The dimensions of my Parlour mould are:-

Body length 470mm (18 1/2")
Upper Bout   215mm ( 8 1/2")
Waist        175mm ( 6 7/8")
Lower Bout   320mm (12 3/4")
Depth neck    95mm ( 3 3/4")
Depth heel   110mm ( 4 1/4")

Scale length will be 610mm (24")

I've got a nice piece of Cocobolo that was going to make a great OM until I dropped it and broke the corner off, now it's just right for the parlour. Top European of course (although I have got some Carpathian)

Now, what I need you to tell me is.

1. Is this feasable, I've never seen a 12 string parlour but why not?

2. Top bracing pattern please, I may go for an AX design or an AXX.

3. I'm using a slot head, does anyone make small 6 plate heads?

4. Can anyone recommend a sound hole bar-pickup, I don't want to fit a permanent pickup but want the option.

5. Any other advice please? Keep it clean!

Colin


Colin S38405.5527546296

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin, hey isn't carpathian spruce from europe? I say go for the 12 string. Look at some rickenbacker 12 string headstocks, I believe they had a strange setup where half of them are slotted and half are thru the peghead. It might be interesting.
As far as soundhole pickups are concerned I've heard that Sunrise are good.
Good Luck
John How38405.5588425926

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Colin,
The smallest 12 string I have built is an OM. I set in my recliner and play my OM's every day. My OM's are a good bit loader than the one Parlor I have built. That said a 12fret-12string should be do-able. Most of the stresses of course will be condensed into a small area. I am not sure on the tuners though.

Carpathian's Euro Spruce, yes, from the Carpathian mountains. Still Picea Abies, which ever way you turn it.

Colin--Don't see why it wouldn't work. Of course, you will miss some of the lower end rumble that a large body would contribute. You'll be dumping twice the treble into a small body that will further accentuate the treble range. But I'll be you can pull it off. The small body with its tight waist will lend more needed strength to the design.

I'm a bit surprised you're not reaching for the Cuban Mahog, though....

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

My only worries would be the size and weight of the headstock with all those tuners on it, and the bridge/bridgeplate footprint on such a small guitar. If you can work those out to your satisfaction, I say go for it!

I'm just finishing up a salon guitar based on the plans that GAL sells for my grandson. It is walnut back/sides and a sitka top. Trying to get the neck made up for it now.

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Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

The smaller size of Stella 12strings had a small body. One web age said that it was 14.5" across. A parlor size is not unthinkable. A slotted head with 6 on a plate tuners would probably be a good idea to cut down on weight.

[QUOTE=Dave Rector] My only worries would be the size and weight of the headstock with all those tuners on it...[/QUOTE]

Dave has a good point here. Go for the slotted head to reduce the weight as much as possible.

And, hasn't Gotoh come out w/ some helium-filled tuners? That should help with the weight.   

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Steve, Dave

I would of course naturally reach for the mahogany but I didn't want the woody sound with the additional treble of the 12, that's why I went with the piece of Coco that I had, I hope it's density will give that extra rumble, I will also use a parabolic X brace on the back's lower bout to give more flexibility, and scalloped/parabolic on the top X. The body is also reasonably long and deep, just slim. I had already decided to go with the slot head which is why I'm after small 6 plate heads. It is ofcourse a 12 fret so that also reduces neck leaverage and has the advantage of moving the bridge into the sweet spot on the lower bout.

The more I think about it the more I think it will be OK.


ColinColin S38406.2047916667

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

John,

Thanks I'll look at Sunrise. Yes Carpathian spruce is European , but not necessarily European Spruce. European Spruce, be it Swiss, Italian, German whatever is of course Picea abies (excelsa), true Carpathian (or Caucasian) spruce is a different species, Picea orientalis or Eastern spruce. If some suppliers are selling Picea abies grown in the Carpathian/Caucasus as Carpathian Spruce then although not wrong they not being strictly accurate. Or more likely the European woodmills are not being completely accurate. The Carpathian/Caucasus spruce that I have is pre-war (as is all my top wood) and is Picea orientalis.



My store of top wood, my wife wonders why I have so much when I only build 4 or so guitars a year. I ask the same about her shoes!

ColinColin S38406.3698958333

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mattia,

Not necessarily, see my reply to John.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mike,

I've always wanted a little Stella, a real 'Bluesman's' guitar.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I have a little Stella guitar. It's not a real old one I'm guessing made in the early 60's but it has that old bluesy tone of a ladder braced guitar. Real cheap/cheesy guitar with painted on bindings and fret markers. It has a floating bridge with tailpeice, cheap openback tuners and a screwed on pickguard.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

[QUOTE=Colin S]

my wife wonders why I have so much when I only build 4 or so guitars a year. I ask the same about her shoes!

Colin[/QUOTE]

Honey, because like wine, it gets better with age

Colin, I'm fairly certain I've read a pretty well researched piece that calls into question the existence of Picea Orientalis and other varieties of European spruce that aren't Picea Abies; seems that many botanists see it as one species. I think Paul H posted it over on the Acoustic Guitar Mag forum in the luthier's corner, ergo my statement. That, or I'm just really confusing things.

Either way, it's a spruce, it's from Europe, it taps nice, so who cares, right?

No, sorry Mattia the botanists at the university here and at the Royal Botanic Gardens at Kew guarentee it's a different species the pollen form is different so it will not interbreed making it taxonomically a different species, leaf shape and form is also different, P. abies and P.orientalis are not the same species. I checked on this some years ago when the wood became available. If you read in a different source that they are the same then I'm afraid that source was certainly in error.

P.abies and P.excelsa are the same species with P excelsa being the archaic name. There is also another distinct species in the balkans, Serbian spruce (Picea omorika), plus of course the Siberian spruce (Picea obovata) that have also been used for instruments.



Picea abies.




Picea orientalis.

P. orientalis has the shortest foliage of any of the spruce species.

Those selling 'Carpathian Spruce' are probably quite right in that they are selling P. abies grown in the Carpathians and it does certainly produce a distinct wood. But the true Carpathian/Caucasas spruce is P. orientalis.

ColinColin S38406.5436226852

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

John,

If you ever feel like giving that little Stella a new home!!!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I stand corrected!

Good to know, anyway. Are the woods distinct enough to be able to really tell from each other? Sound any different? If we're talking wood from the two species from a similar area, I mean. Do you know of anyone actually selling the two as distinct tonewoods, seperate from each other?Mattia Valente38406.6353935185

I'll post a picture of her when I get a chance, but I couldn't send her packin.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

John,

Well, I understand, just give her a little tickle for me then, something by Son House, he played an old Stella.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.