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Hi there,
I am new around here, I just signed up with hopes of getting some insight on how I should restore my new 1940s harmony stampede. I bought it for 20 bucks and I am hoping to get a playable instrument out of it.

The issues: it being so old it has a lot of problems biggest one being the back. It has come off of the guitar about 10" each way from the big missing piece. Is fixing that as simple as gluing that up at putting a new piece where it is missing one? Also it is missing a peg for one of the tuners. Opinions? should I get new tuners all together? Or try to fix what I have? Also I want to be sure the bridge is good for having a good sound it is a screwed down saddle with a piece of fret wire where the strings sit.






Anything els anyone thinks I can do to make it sound as good as possible?

Thanks a million!

Tyson


Tyson k

Hi Tyson and welcome to the OLF.

These old Harmony Guitars never sounded good when they were new so any expectation that restoring it will be an improvement over what it originally was is likely to leave you disappointed....

With that out of the way as far as the tuners are concerned parts are not available such as a missing tuning post. You may get lucky and find a 3 way set on eBay or the tuners may have to be replaced. Stewart MacDonald offers Golden Age tuners which are well made and work very well but will cost you some coin.

Regluing the back, braces, etc is not difficult and pretty self explanatory. In some instances if enough of the back is off a mold may be helpful to keep the shape of the sides while gluing the back. That's usually only necessary when half or more of the back is off.

The bridge on these is junk and screwed on and made from some very splintery crap wood that easily splits. If you replace the original bridge it may be an improvement especially with a contemporary saddle that can be removed and it's height adjusted. But, on the other hand that would not be restoration in the strict restoration, work with what you have sense.

This could be a fun project but I did want to set your expectation correctly that "sounding good" may not be in this puppy's future because it certainly was not in it's past.

Yeah I kind of figured it would not come out amazing (painted on inlays are a tel tale sign) if I can get something playable I'll be happy, like you said a fun project. I probably will change the bridge I would like to do as much as I can to make it sound "ok". I will look into tuners and a bridge and I am also replacing the nut the one it it is a broken and b terrible in the first place (probably that splintery wood you talked about). And more sound bettering tips?


Tyson k

You know, they don't sound great, but these painted guitars are gaining popularity as historical Americana. I am seeing them going for between $150 and $300 on ebay. You could do things to improve it, but to Hesh's point their are limits to the possible improvements, and you will probably reduce the appeal of it by making it "better". I think you should do basic repairs (basically gluing things back together), and then just enjoy it for what it is. It may sound like a big cigar box, but there are applications for that.

Regards,
GS

If you want to upgrade a few things with the hope of having a better playing, sounding guitar here are some of the things that I would do to it if it was mine AND if I was not interested in preserving it's originality.

1) New tuners, Stew-Mac Golden age
2) New bone nut that you make yourself (there is a tutorial in the toots section of the forum for nut making)
3) Fret dress, level and recrown. These guitars often had flat fret tops so a little crown would help it play in tune.
4) A different bridge and you will likely have to stay with a pinless design that you come up with since these did not have proper bridge plates because of the pinless bridges.
5) As a part of the new bridge design a proper bone saddle that is located correctly and compensated as well. That's a huge upgrade and will permit the guitar to play in tune all up the neck if done well.

You might want to check the neck angle too to know if the neck angle is correct or if it needs to be reset.

Should be a fun project and if you get on stage with that guitar I doubt that anyone in town will have one exactly like it!

Thanks!
What I am looking at doing is buying a new bridge (I am looking a golden gate one online that is pinless) A new nut but that was a given seeing as the old one is broken. Now is making one a better idea then buying? And is it ok to buy a saddle? I am looking at a bone nut and saddle set online. I found a cheaper set of tuners that I will probably get for the time being as I am not flush right now am I being in canada the stew-Mac set is $80 for me after sipping and usd to cad conversion. I will definitely upgrade them in the new year if I see the need. Then the frets I didn't think to do that that's good advise. What kind of tools are needed for that just the basics or something special?
Thanks again!


Tyson k

My friend this is a forum for making stuff although we all end up buying WAY more stuff than we likely anticipated in terms of tools, wood, etc...

You re always better off making parts and we whip out bridges in a few minutes when we need to replace them. It also gives you an opportunity to have it fit the looks of the instrument AND importantly the footprint for the bridge that matches the bracing (support structure) inside the guitar.

Same with saddles and nuts, we make em custom for what ever we need when we need them. Just made a bone nut this morning for a semi-hollow bodied electric.

Fret dressing is an art but you can get though it nicely with a long beam (something that is perfectly level and checked for levelness).

Awesome, frankly it be cheaper to make my nut / bridge so why not! I'll look in materials in my area. Thanks mate!


Tyson k

I am a sucker for projects like this. I have a couple of busted up birch body Guitar Shaped Objects in the garage, waiting for a slow day, to get glued up.

For the bridge you'll want a good hardwood. No point in changing it for more of same. You could cut one to the same footprint, but out of a good piece of wood, and as Hesh said, with a slot for a compensated bone saddle. If you don't want to pop for ebony or rosewood, persimmon is a hardwood I have used for bridges. Before metal golf clubs it is what they used to make golf club heads out of, very hard. You could then paint with black lacquer and it would look original but play better.

I am a sucker for projects like this. I have a couple of busted up birch body Guitar Shaped Objects in the garage, waiting for a slow day, to get glued up.

For the bridge you'll want a good hardwood. No point in changing it for more of same. You could cut one to the same footprint, but out of a good piece of wood, and as Hesh said, with a slot for a compensated bone saddle. If you don't want to pop for ebony or rosewood, persimmon is a hardwood I have used for bridges. Before metal golf clubs it is what they used to make golf club heads out of, very hard. You could then paint with black lacquer and it would look original but play better.

I am a sucker for projects like this. I have a couple of busted up birch body Guitar Shaped Objects in the garage, waiting for a slow day, to get glued up.

For the bridge you'll want a good hardwood. No point in changing it for more of same. You could cut one to the same footprint, but out of a good piece of wood, and as Hesh said, with a slot for a compensated bone saddle. If you don't want to pop for ebony or rosewood, persimmon is a hardwood I have used for bridges. Before metal golf clubs it is what they used to make golf club heads out of, very hard. You could then paint with black lacquer and it would look original but play better.

Tyson,
No one really addressed the elephant in the room and that is the missing piece of back that you need to repair even before you start thinking of replacing bridges or tuners.

I have been repairing guitars like this for years, this is how I got started in repair when I was a kid (I am now retired and repair guitars as a hobby/extra income).

First you need to decide how deep you want to get into this. If you are doing this to learn guitar repair or do you just want this one guitar to play, it makes a big difference how you approach it. If it is is the former then you should use this as a learning tool and try to repair it by removing the back so you can splice in the patch with a good straight seam that will hold up over time. I am in the process of restoring a 1950 Gibson CF-100 and I have a thread right here in this section that shows me removing the top. I suggest you have a look at that and see how to do it. The advantage of removing the back is that you can then have easy access to all the braces and can re-glue anything that is loose or broken. It will also give you good access to that crack on the lower bout. As someone else mentioned about removing the back you will need to make sure when you put it back together that everything lines up and the sides are square or the back will not fit properly. This can be done pretty easily with no special moulds or jigs just by gluing one side first and lining it up properly. Let it dry and then glue up the other side by using an artist pallete knife to get the glue up to the edge where you have already glued. In this case you should use Titebond glue so you have time to work.

As for repairing the missing piece, You need to determine what the back wood is. Knowing a bit about Harmony guitars they were fond of using Birch however just from looking at the picture you posted it appears to be Mahogany but it is difficult to tell just from a picture. I do know that this guitar is solid wood and not ply so that is a good thing. What ever the wood... you will need to find a piece that is slightly larger than what you need and a little thicker. I would suggest going any one of the building forums and ask if someone has a piece the size you need. Many builders have scrap laying around that you could probably get pretty reasonable. You will need to cut both the back and the new piece so they fit perfectly together (joining them). This is usually done with a hand plane but it can be done by sanding the two together on edge on something that is perfectly flat like a table saw top, a piece of thick plate glass or some surface that you know is flat. You would then put the edges together edge to edge and hold them up to a light looking for any place that is not "joined". Then you need to glue them together. There are plenty of "how to" join backs and soundboards you can find on the forums or Youtube.

After the pieces are joined then you need to cut the shape out since you just joined a square to a guitar shape. I would make a pattern out of paper and cut the new piece a little bit larger than you need. Normally one would use a router and a bit with a bearing on it to cut the piece flush after it is glued on. If you don't have a router it can be done by hand but be careful not to crack it because it will spit very easily. Get it within 1/4" of the side of the guitar and you can sand the rest. It is a good idea to tape up the side so you don't mark it up wile doing this.

Now, if you are only wanting to make this guitar play then I would not bother with removing the back, it is a lot of work and the experience will do you no good... In that case what you need to do is cut the back where it is cracked the best you can an make it as straight as you can. Try to cut the edge square so you can match up the new piece to it. Do your best to fit the two together and then glue them in place. You will probably not get a perfect seam but if all you are trying to do is make it play then that is probably not too important.

In both cases you will want to put cleats on the inside directly over the seam. These are little diamonds or squares glued on the seam using about the same thickness of wood as the top. The grain should run either diagonal or across the grain of the top. This will keep the wood from splitting along the grain beside the glue seam.

The next thing you will have a challenge with is the finish. If is is just a player then you may want to consider just putting some clear lacquer from a spray bomb to seal it up and call it good. Matching the original finish will be a big challenge and probably left to someone who knows how to do it.

As for the bridge and tuners? That is the simple part and I don't think I would wast the time on those right now. If you can't fix that back the bridge and tuners will not do you much good and you will have wasted your time and money on them.

That's my take on this and just as anything else, ask 100 people how to do something and you will get 50 different answers and the other 50 will just say "What He Said... "

If you can get this guitar playing well it will probably be a pretty cool old blues box. If you listen to some of the old delta blues players they were not using much more than this guitar and they have a wonderful sound. I just recently did a neck reset on a Harmony that someone brought to me. I told him the neck reset would cost more than the guitar was worth but he didn't care. He played old time blues and liked the sound of his guitar and wanted it repaired. So don't think that just because a guitar is not worth a lot on the books that is isn't worth fixing.

Good luck on your repair and I hope it turns out better than you expect.

Cheers,
Bob

Thanks Bob that is really helpful, I have dreams of guitar making/repairing in the future in fact I (in a while) may get a crappy electric guitar kit and do my darnedest to make it something that plays well. Anyhow the experience may benefit me. One question; if I were to take the back off are there things I could do to the sound board/braces to get a nicer sound guitar out of the mix? I don't know but hey. As for the bridge wood I have a piece of ebony on its way (found it cheap that's what I do!). So yeah I'll make it out of ebony. I chose it over rosewood because the original bridge was black so it works!
Again thank you to everyone that is helping out! Merry Christmas!


Tyson k

Merry Christmas to you also Tyson,

If you are going to do this for the education (and to to get a playing guitar) then welcome to the world of obsession... Once you start..
As far as making this guitar sound better? Probably not. I am pretty sure this is a ladder braced guitar and that in part is what gives them that boxy blues sound which IMHO is a good thing. I would concentrate on trying to make it play well by getting the bridge and saddle right for good intonation and the action correct. If you can fix that missing back piece, replace the bridge and saddle and get it playing in tune then you should call this one a success.

Without removing all the braces and putting in X bracing there isn't a lot you can do to change the sound very much. But you do want to make sure there are no loose braces and everything looks good and tight. It appears as though this guitar was dropped so you will want to check very carefully for any cracked braces. You can do that by thumping everything you can inside and out. By thumping I mean using your finger as if you were drumming on the table. Use the end of your middle finger that way and put your ear up next to where you thump. Listen for any clicking or popping noise which indicate you are on something loose. If you do find loose or cracked braces then they must be glued and clamped.

Good luck and you should post you progress here.

Cheers,
Bob

Uh oh just found that there is a little play in the neck, that opens a whole new kettle of worms does it not?


Tyson k

The movement is under a millimetre should I be worried about it?


Tyson k

Not sure how I missed this as well


Tyson k

Tyson,


Either a "kettle of worms" or a "challenge"... Depends on your perspective



Yes...



That does present another "challenge"

At this point if what you want to do is learn then you have a perfect candidate to operate on...

However, the amount of work that this particular guitar needs far, far, far exceeds its value. Again, it all depends on your perspective. If want to learn how to repair you will get a crash course into some of the more advanced aspects of repair/restoration. I can guarantee you will be doing some serious sweating from nerves on this one. The neck reset will be a big challenge if you don't have the knowledge of guitar geometry. This guitar most likely has a dovetail joint which is probably the hardest thing to understand in repair work that you will encounter so there will be a huge learning curve on this one.

As a first repair just the first part (the back, bridge, fretwork) was going to be a big challenge and to add on a neck reset and what appears to be failing glue joints this could just put you over your skill set.

You may be better off just making this one a wall hanger and call it artwork.

Bob

Note: My guess is this guitar has been exposed to some serious heat/dry conditions and it looks like the glue may be failing. If that is the case then every glue joint on this will probably need to be redone.

Well I am up for a challenge I bought it even if it takes me months I get a guitar out of it and I would love the experience. And I already purchased the hardware, so what the hell..but if it looks like a helpless cause to you I can hang it. What is your opinion Bob do it or leave it?


Tyson k

Tyson,
If you are up for the challenge and don't have any expectations of the outcome then you should go for it.

My advice to you is before you do anything, have a plan of how you are going to do that specific task and know exactly what and why you are doing it. Re-think it through and try to think of everything that can go wrong. If you have that basic concept down you can't help but learn in the process.

If you only look at this as a learning process and don't expect the end results will be more than it can be you will be just fine.

I wish you luck and remember this one thing... Keep your hands and fingers behind any sharp cutting tools.

Cheers,
Bob

Thanks Bob I really appreciate this. I think I am going for it. Now I have to think of the order of operations. Should I take the neck off scrape it then do the body work?


Tyson k

Tyson,
You may want to have a look at this thread, it pretty much has all the steps I did on my Gibson CF-100. This is a complete restoration where I am replacing the top but it has a lot of the steps and the order that I am doing it.

http://luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=46629

You may have already looked though it but it may be a good idea to read through it because I explain everything I am doing and why. It also will show you some of the tools, processes and jigs I made.

Hope it helps, and if you have any questions feel free to send me a PM.

Cheers,
Bob

Thanks Ill read through that!

Much appreciated,


Tyson k

The neck is off the guitar it went well, no real issue to note.


Tyson k

So the back is now off of the guitar it went fairly smoothly although the lining broke in one place do I just glue that together when glueing the back on again? Also now I would like to clean up some of this glue mess, along to sides and lining do I just sand it? I see, Bob, that you used vinegar in the body of your cf-100 should I use some vinegar on some of the old squeeze out? Making sure to neutralize it with baking soda. One last thing in fear of sounding like a broken record is it a big job or is it worth it to take out the two braces under the sound hole and put an x brace in. I don't know it it is worth it but if it could help this lil' guitar to sound a little better that would be great.


Tyson k