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You are reading far too much into it. I am referring to how I may do things if I needed to increase efficiency. The point I am making does not refer to anyone else. It points to my own personal methods, the working method. I don't have to make any of those items that I named. I could quite easily go out and buy them. The salient point is that I enjoy making those items, just as I enjoy planing wood by hand. The final comment regarding China was a tongue in cheek comment, hence the exclamation mark but I can now see how it could be misinterpreted. It certainly wasn't intended that way.
For me it's all about the working day, not how much more efficient I can be. That is what the sentence refers to, not a slight on anyone else's approach. TBH it doesn't bother me one little bit what method others use, power or hand tools. I've said as much many times on a few forums. It really does not concern me.

Thank you Michael for the clarification.

I certainly agree with the 3/16" being a pretty thick B&S set -- but it does seem like a common number including Allied. I think RC has a free sanding service -- might be a god send for some?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Cheers Jimmy

Its a cheap £10 (im uk) plane but seems ok about 10-12 inches long.. im afraid all i have is a sharpening stone (grey oblong stone type thing)

Had another go tonight after sharpening and trying a thinner cut .. was better but definitely not getting nice scrolls of wood shavings like i imagined but it is sort of getting rid of the saw ripples

Heres some pics of plane/sharpening stone






Cheers

I stopped reading the posts in this thread fairly early as this is the kind of topic that leads to arguments where arguments don't really exist, so forgive me if this was already mentioned. I often see discussions about thickness and it always seems to end up divided into two boxes: learn to do it by hand or shell out for a thickness sander. Really there is a third option. Admittedly, this option is only for the hobbyist like me but there are a number of us here. Once can make a thickness sander for very little money if one skips the power feed. Mine is a 25" drum so I can feed jointed backs through at an angle (or even totally across the grain) for the early passes which goes much faster. It is a bit tedious to stand there and feed the stock through manually for many many light passes but the results are accurate and there is no tear-out. If I have thicker stock and want to get closer and save myself some time on the sander I plane across the grain until I feel like I am gong to have to start being more careful then go to the sander.

I'm pretty sure I spent less than $75 making my sander mostly out of scrounged materials. I got way more width than I would have been able to afford/justify and it was made to fit in the workspace I had. There seemed to be a lot of talk about making these things on the internet years ago and you never hear it mentioned anymore. I use mine all the time, If something happened to it I would make another without second guessing the choice. making a sander is not right for everyone but it is a viable option for many of us.

Here it is with the dust collector removed. It is not fancy by any means but does a great job, albeit slowly.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

No problems Ken.

I've just done a Colin. Indian rosewood, one half (which is how I normally plane them). They get joined close to final thickness but not exact. A few tenths to go.
This took 12 minutes, ready to join but not finished smooth. It will require a finishing smoother and scraper after the plates are joined. It is now at 2.8 mm's with little variation. I measured 3 mm's at one point but I wasn't exactly going for final dimensions.
The starting thickness was a huge 6 mm's. I have a few sets like that. I don't know why they come that thick but perhaps they represent the last cuts from the block. The vast majority seem to come in at a more sensible 5 mm's.
Normally I would not use that big No. 6. The wooden plane did a good 75% of the work. The No. 6 is too heavy IMO but of course it does the job. A No.4 size would be less tiring.
This is not a boast. It does show that it need not take all day to thickness Back, Sides and soundboard. 'Easier' wood, such as Walnut would be quicker, harder woods like Braz. Rosewood quite a bit slower. I'm a little tired. 15 years ago I would have done the same in less than 10 minutes but age is taking it's toll.

Maybe I'll buck convention and try this.



Alex


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Haha Alex

Nearly used that last night !!

Alex, I bet if Roy Underhill decided to make guitars, he might use that for the rough thicknessing. Maybe and adz. . . but he would finish off with a wooden coffin plane. . . and an adorably awful pun or two.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Not sure about that sharpening stone. If it's the type I think it is it may not be doing you any favours. You might be better going for the scary sharp method, micro bevel with a very fine paper. That's by far the cheapest way short term, not cheap long term though. The plane likewise, maybe it can be fettled into working OK. It looks like it's one of the very cheap Indian Planes.

You're right, Bryan. I love watching Roy. Under all that folksy humour is a craftsman who is a walking history of woodworking technique. I was just kidding about the hatchet, but hope that it gets buried soon.

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

His is, by far, the best woodworking show around. Here is my favorite episode:

http://video.pbs.org/video/2365309296/


It's not even about a project or technique, but it really does highlight his personality. I wish I had a 10th of his experience in the craft.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Think I'll leave this to Jimmyjames, being our resident hand plane expert.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

That was great, Bryan! I'd love to shake his 80grit hand, and say, thank you!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

About 3 pages ago I said:
".......you will soon find yourself shelling out for a drum sander. It just does the job so much better than hand tools"

I hesitated for a while before writing the word "better" - considered substituting faster, safer, cleaner, (but dustier, noisier, costlier). Then I thought - nope, if I say "better" it will really get the conversation flowing.

Thanks for not disappointing!

Cablepuller, check your "new messages"

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Let's not make this hand Planing thing sound like it's some sort of mystical Art form, only bequeathed to a select few. It's not an art form. It's just a relatively basic tool that requires a bit of knowledge and a bit of practice. Nothing more, nothing less. For some odd reason folk like to make it all seem impossibly hard, fiendishly difficult. Sharpening is no different. It's just a series of relatively simple steps. You can teach a beginner how to sharpen Plane blades and chisels in 10 minutes or so. OK freehand and double bevel knives are more involved but no one is compelled to use freehand.

About a year ago I thicknessed 15 tops to my joining specs, around .140". Some of the tops were from Mario DeCosta and came thicker than .200". With glass of lemonade (I know, I know what a wuss.....) in hand and some Stones playing through the vintage Ohm B2's it took me all of 45 minutes to do with no drama, no damage to anything... or anyone.... and with proper dust collection my shop even stayed clean... After all priorities ya know....

The belt on the Performax remains on the machine to this very day and I have used it since as well so one belt, a few bucks... did the trick and then some.

Now this idea that sanding to thickness leaves deep, frequent scratches that will result in less stiffness and even a tonal impact..... which is hooey in my book (language modified for G rated forum) also must take into account what method one uses for sanding.

I run 120 for spruce on my Performax and never thickness to the final dimensions on the Performax. Instead I take things about .010 thicker than I want and use a Festool really, really random orbit sander with 220 for final thickness. The top of my tops are scraped and always have been and not because I buy into this notion about being able to hear a difference from if a plane was used or a sander was used but because my rosette making process has me using a scraper after the shrinkage..... has finished on the top side of the top so I always did the entire top with the scraper on the outside because it is a nice look. But once the box is closed and if I want more bass response I may use the ROS around the perimeter ala Bob Taylor to thin the perimeter even further hoping to make a more active top. 220 on the ROS again.

As such when my plates are final thickness the top of the top has been scraped and usually sanded too and the underside of the top never had deep seeded emotional distress scratches in it anyway because the thing never saw more than 120 grit on the Performax.

If sanding decreased stiffness, if it really matters it's then completely accounted for in how one braces and voices.... For all of time Luthiers have had the option of having a stiffer top and less bracing or more bracing and a less stiff top. The end result is the same, or.... if it's not if you can hear the difference your medical Marijuana dispensary sells better stuff than mine....

If you really, really, really wanna the best way to weed though this issue just keep building.... there will never be any suitable substitute for personal experience in determining what works for you, what you enjoy, what skills YOU can make work for you in a manner that produces the desired results.

I use planes were and when I think it's a good solution and I employ power tools too and am very glad to have them. My objective is killer guitars not.... someone else's idea of Lutherie purity....

Although I completely agree that using planes and all that goes with it, sharpening, technique, searching for a worthy restoration candidate for first time plane buyers, losing your soul flattening the sucker over a lot of time, etc. is useful and important.

But it's not the only way.... I have 14 clubs (sometimes 15 because I cheat...) in my golf bag for a reason.....

Ditto what Hesh said and ditto what Michael said --

However, Michael -- I believe your passion for what you do may have caused you to underestimate your own refined skill levels in regard to this procedure and associated tool prep plus maintenance.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Guys, I watched two eighth graders with no experience use contractor grade Stanley blocks planes to thickness their tops in an hour and a half one week, and their walnut backs and sides in the same time the next. You don't need to be a woodworking decathlete to pick up the skill and do it.

They never complained that it was too hard or confusing or anything like it. They just started doing it, had fun, figured out how to use the deep throat caliper to get uniform thickness, and swept up their shavings when class was out. It takes more time to watch a few handplane videos on YouTube than it does to develop the feel, and they're all the more skilled for it. Same with carving their necks. They weren't all consternated about it like I was; they just did it and had something finished in under and hour.

Sometimes we just have to try something.

I'm not trying to make anything sound mythical or difficult. I hope it doesn't sound that way. It's all simple but a rusty, bent up plane and a single, wavy stone is a long way from effortless shavings.

I planed in the eighth grade but there was a master who set up the plane. The doing is absurdly easy, the preparation is the expense.

No matter how sharp your blade is an out of whack plane will not produce the results you're looking for. Just as a bent saw will never cut straight no matter how sharp it is.

-j

To be clear and I think part of this discussion, is that some would rather get a "root canal" than spend 3 or 4 hours hand planing boards, ---- neither maker is more or less an artist or craftsman based on the thinning process selected.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I wish I had a dollar for every time I learned that lesson in my fumbling attempts to learn this craft. I spent way too much time figuring out an easier way or way around some traditional methods that intimidated me. Finally I would give up and try the traditional technique only to discover it was not nearly as difficult or mystical as I thought.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

jimmyjames said:

A truly well tuned and sharpened plane can be set on one end of a board and the board lifted, the plane will cut by its own weight and gravity. In the days when planes ruled the earth apprentices participated in these "plane races" to see who had done the best job finely tuning their tools.


I am all for using planes - I have over 100 in the basement - I sort of accumulate them (it is NOT a collection!!!) and I got curious about this statement. I took a corrugated sole Stanley Bedrock #4 (Lie Nielson ancestor plane) because 1) it had a 2" blade and not the wider blade like perhaps a #4-1/2, 2) it is a bit heavier than a standard Stanley #4, 3) the corrugations would reduce bottom friction a bit.

I chose a smoothly finished piece of 6/4 poplar for my victim so that 1) it offered very little surface friction and 2) it was stiff enough that it would not flex and impair cutting action.

I got the plane to slide down the board at about 16-18° with the blade retracted. Then, with the finely sharpened blade set for a minimal cut, it slid down the board at about 18-20° without producing a shaving. Extending the blade a bit at a time, it took a little greater angle to move, but it never produced even sawdust.

Using a 15" wood jack plane, it skidded down the board at a lower angle, also never producing a shaving.

Last night I introduced this question to a hand tools forum I am on, and by this morning the consensus seems to be that this story must be apocryphal or a parlor trick. jimmyjames - do you have any links to this story? I would love to see the conditions that it could happen under.


Ed