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I'm trying to figure out the best way to go about this. I have an electric body that is mahogany with a quilt maple top. I'm gonna dye the top red but I'm also doing a binding. Probably mahogany (against the maple) & curly maple(against the mahogany). It'll require several applications of dye so I want to figure out a better solution than just plain being careful.

1. I thought about dyeing the top and then routing the binding channel. However, if I get any tear out it's gonna be noticeable. I would say I could dye just that part and fill it in with CA except this is going to be a multi-component dye job and I feel like it wouldn't blend in too easily. Plus, the clear coat will possibly magnify the low area.

2. I thought about routing the binding channel before dyeing and then installing it before clear coating. With this scenario I feel like there would inevitably be an area of the top that gets hit by a scraper or hand plane or whatever I'm using to get it flush.

3. Then I thought about spraying a sealer coat after dyeing but before installing the binding. I could clean up the binding channel with files or maybe re-route it to get rid of whatever finish ended up in there. I also figure that if I use CA as my binding glue, it should make a good solid bond to any lacquer or shellac that is left in the binding channel.

4. Installing the binding prior to dyeing the top just seems like a bad idea altogether. Obviously, if I do nothing, no matter how careful I am some dye will inevitably get on my binding and crush my will to live. I could mask off the quilted maple and seal the bindings. However, I feel like I'd have to repeat this resealing process for each coat of dye that gets sanded back.

The point is to keep the outer layer of curly maple as clean as possible.

Obviously, option 3 seems pretty good but maybe someone here can offer something I haven't thought about yet.


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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

Hey Aaron,
I think I would install and sand the binding flush with the top before dye.
Seems like there would be a way to carefully brush on a sealer or some protective coat on the binding before dyeing.
I use water based dye, so it needs a light sanding afterwards anyway due to raised grain.
Sorry I did not answer your question.
I think trying to sand the binding flush with a dyed top would sand into the dye.
Let us know what worked for you, I'm curious about how to do it as well.
Dan

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If I did it this way, I would probably try to sand the areas close to the binding with sandpaper wrapped around a small battery or a finger. That just seems tedious. I usually use a medium sized block to make it easy to keep everything flat and only hit the high spots. Basically, I'm doing the typical "pop the grain" by sanding back several applications of dye. I guess I was hoping to not have to reseal the maple binding with every application of dye. The mahogany is not as susceptible to the dye but I want it to remain the same in color as the rest of the body.

Sorry if this subject isn't fresh. I looked around and found a lot of posts/webpages with info regarding bleeding into adjacent laminates but not many good methods of getting around it. Luckily I'm building rather than repairing so I have more options. If there is info on this forum that I missed, feel free to post a link. Thanks.


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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

Aaron, I've pondered this question, too. In fact, I did dye a highly figured maple banjo, but that instrument had plastic binding which scraped clean, and darker wood accents which were largely un-affected by the dye. Let me ask: How good are you with an artist's brush? I don't mean painting landscapes. One very effective method is to paint a thick sealer over anything you don't want dyed. The sealer easily sands back to level after your dye job. It's well worth a little experiment to see if you can paint to a line. It's not nearly as difficult as it might seem, it'll seal much better than tape and I doubt it's any more tedious than masking with tape. Proviso: Use a decent quality small artist's brush from the hobby store and fairly thick sealer--two coats.

If you were staining, I'd say mask it with auto body masking tape. But I think dye will creep in under the edge of any tape. ...at least, it would happen that way on one of MY tape jobs!

Are you going to do any purfling? If so you might consider one or two thin lines of plastic - that should stop the dye bleeding thru. Also, you might be able to route your binding channel and use that Teflon that is used for pearl purling to kind of hold the place to add your wood binding later.

I'm faced with a similar situation - I'm building a couple of parlors with slotted headstocks. I want to laminate some thin light veneers between the neck and head plate, and I need to stain the necks dark reddish brown. last time I did this I had a lot of dye bleeding into the other wood - this time I'm going to dye the necks first. The problem here is that I usually have a lot of work with rasps and such shaping the slots (much like your issues of tearout) - I'm thinking of either lightly gluing the head plates on with HHG (which I can separate) or just clamping and shaping the pieces.

Let us know how you end up doing it and how well it works. I like wood bindings and I also like stains and sunbursts - I just haven't put the two together.

I guess the reason why I was leaning away from installing the binding prior to doing the dye had something to do with the bleeding. But that's not all. Let's say I install the binding first. I'm going to have to you some kind of glue to attach the bindings. I can try to be really careful but I feel like once a little dab of glue gets on the quilted maple it's going to act as and unwanted sealer which will prevent the dye from soaking into the quilted maple in whatever spot it ends up.

And to further complicate matters it's a droptop S style. I made my own router arm/donut/binding jig. As far as I can tell it's about the same as the one being sold by a few companies. I don't think the router is going to clear that arm bevel. If anybody's got any suggestions on that feel free.


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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

I'm facing something similar on another build. One I haven't started yet but the customer wants swamp ash dyed black. The instrument will have a buckeye burl top and back. So the side profile would look like buckeye burl/black swamp ash/buckeye burl. What I am thinking of doing is cutting the bodies core, final sanding it on the sides, die, grain fill , seal. Then sand the core to its final thickness before laminating the top & back. It will be a droptop as well. I've been doing these with a vacuum press. With droptops I end up having to use extra clamps to get the top to make contact with the arm bevel along its entire length. I am thinking that the vacuum press may not be worth it in these situations since I can't clean up glue squeeze out and I end up having to sand it pretty aggressively once the glue has cured. Maybe I could tape off the sealed body core overtop of the finish before gluing the top and back so that the glue squeezes out onto the face of the tape rather than the finish. I don't know... it seems like there are issues no matter which way you do it.


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"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."

Hey, Aaron,
I'm not sure what to tell you about your router binding jig, but I have two further thoughts about pre-binding and dyes.
You can seal your binding ledge with shellac prior to installing the bindings. That will protect against color bleed below the surface. You can "paint" a border of shellac around the top, back and sides next to the binding ledge. That will catch any glue squeeze or spill over and it will all sand back to fresh wood once the bindings are installed. Your ledge will still be sealed, but you would then need to mask off the exposed part of the binding, either with tape or with brushed on sealer. I don't think any of this will be particularly difficult, but it'll be fairly time consuming and persnickety, no matter how you go about it.

It's probably easier to apply all of your color in sprayed finished coats (tinted lacquer or whatever) because then you can mask or scrape your bindings clean. But you already know that, and, it's a different look, too.

I think if you'll take the time to experiment with some scraps (make your ledge, seal the ledge, apply a little binding, etc.) you'll settle on a method that will work for you. Dyes really can be spectacular on figured woods and can be well worth some experimentation. Just don't experiment on your guitar! You already know that, too. (I tossed that in for the benefit of someone who might not have thought all this through as carefully as you have.)

When I do a dyed sunburst with wood binding, I install the binding first. Then I sand the ribs down to level them to the binding. After sanding everything, I seal the binding with a water based sealer coat. The sealer needs to be only on the binding purfling. So I mask the ribs, back and top first. This takes time but it is worth the effort. After sealing the binding with 2 coats, I then mask the binding with masking tape. I use masking tape that is cut to the exact width needed. I use 2 pieces, one for the side face and one for the front or back. I don't have a problem with glue residue because I glue the binding in with hide glue. After all this I start the dying process. First apply the dye, then several coats of shellac. Then remove the mask on the binding and hopefully it is clean and free of any dye. If the sealer did its job all should be well. If the seal is done well this method keeps the binding clean. I use this method when I bind with white fiber binding. The fiber soaks up dye like a sponge. So a good masking is a must.

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Thanks for all of the advice. I ended up deciding on the faux binding look. First I sealed the edges with shellac after masking off the top. There were a few spots on the top where some shellac got through. I sanded it off and it doesn't seem like it affected the absorption of the dye into the maple. After that, I masked off the rest of the body and started the dying process. I used 2 different colors of dye, sanding back each one. After which the top was sealed and a third color dye was sprayed. After all of that, there were a few spots where some dye bled through but nothing like if I hadn't done all that preparation. There was a loose piece of 400 grit sandpaper on the bench when I remove the masking tape. I picked it up and was able to sand the few spots of bleedthrough off of the side of the maple so it looks like all is good there.



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_________________
"I'm not going to say that perfection has never been achieved. However, if it has, it probably went unnoticed due to it's lack of character."