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PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:58 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:04 pm
Posts: 41
Focus: Repair
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Okay, so, it's time to refret my guitar again. I have a heavy hand, and the dunlop 6000's I put on a few years back are worn down almost to the wood from all the levelling I've done to take out the notches I've put in them.
Back when I re-fretted it, I had no access to the internet, or any learning material. I ripped out the old frets, tapped in the new ones, and leveled the frets based on what I learned from an article in a guitar magazine. It actually played okay. Not great, but better than with the big notches in the tiny frets.
I re-radiused the fretboard by hand at the same time. I doubt I got it close to accurate. I think the curve is more intense towards the edge, and a bit flatter in the middle. This time I'm gonna use a 16" radius sanding block and even it all out.
Could my messed up radius be the reason for my fret-buzz, and notes that choke out higher up the neck, since the same notes have sounded choked even though the frets have been leveled more than once?
Is there any tonal difference with stainless frets?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:32 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
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Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
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Yes, a FB with an inconsistent shape/radius can cause the types of problems you describe.

While some claim to hear a difference in stainless frets I myself cannot.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:55 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan
First name: Hesh
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Fret buzz can be caused by a plethora of reasons and combinations of reasons that become the limiting factor(s) toward getting lower action and buzzless bliss...

Some reasons can be as follows:

1) Frets are not level.... It's impossible to level a fret plane with anything that does not span the entire fret plane such as a leveling beam. Shorter radius blocks will not level the fret plane onto itself, they are too short.

2) Lose frets. Sometimes frets are not all the way in and firmly in place. For folks who have not done fret work prior hammering frets can result in damaging the fret slots to the degree that the tangs and barbs are not biting into fresh, undisturbed wood. Additionally hammering can "spring" a fret's radius right out of it and make the ends not want to stay down.

3) Frets are not glued in place and loose as in 2 above.

4) On electrics with a bolt-on Fender style necks such as your Tele invariably there will be a ski ramp of sorts where the neck transitions over the body and this ski ramp is very often the limiting factor to low action and bent notes fretting out. Solution, mill down the fret board extension frets creating fall-away.

5) Nut slots if too low can cause buzzing on open notes and if too high can create intonation problems.

6) Pups - yes your pickups can be the offender too. Some folks like to have their pickups very close to the strings in an effort to either impact balance or output. Pups are magnetic, strings are metal, place the pup too close to the strings and the magnetic pull can encourage a vibrating string to vibrate into the frets. Very common and very easy to fix, lower the pups and see manufacturer recommendations for safe spacing.

7) Too much relief, too little relief, incorrect relief such as less on the bass side and more on the treble side. Solution adjust relief AND/OR fret and level in a manner that imparts proper relief where you want it and where you don't.

8) Although less common - rubber necks as Dan as in Earlywine would say. This is why he developed the neck jig for and the idea is that when the instrument is in the playing position gravity changes what we see when evaluating the fret plane.

A newly refretted guitar should be capable of playing better than when it was new. Seriously a precision fret dress is something that does not come from f*ctories, unfortunately including G*bson with their penchant for PLEKs.

Having the radius increase near the edges of the fret board is caused by over radiusing when leveling the board except on say 50's G*bsons and earlier, G*bson back in the day would use a wire wheel in the fretting process that would roll over the edges of the fret board AND leave little plateaus under the fret ends. This is pre-nib days that I speak about.

Bad strings are also far more common than most of us would like.... At times a bad string can be the issue, solution, replace the stinkin string and never by that brand again...

Good fret work is an art and can take some time and lots of experience to learn but the results can be huge differences for the players.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: xgabrielx (Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:45 pm)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:44 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:04 pm
Posts: 41
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
Hesh wrote:
Fret buzz can be caused by a plethora of reasons and combinations of reasons that become the limiting factor(s) toward getting lower action and buzzless bliss...

Some reasons can be as follows:

1) Frets are not level.... It's impossible to level a fret plane with anything that does not span the entire fret plane such as a leveling beam. Shorter radius blocks will not level the fret plane onto itself, they are too short.

2) Lose frets. Sometimes frets are not all the way in and firmly in place. For folks who have not done fret work prior hammering frets can result in damaging the fret slots to the degree that the tangs and barbs are not biting into fresh, undisturbed wood. Additionally hammering can "spring" a fret's radius right out of it and make the ends not want to stay down.

3) Frets are not glued in place and loose as in 2 above.

4) On electrics with a bolt-on Fender style necks such as your Tele invariably there will be a ski ramp of sorts where the neck transitions over the body and this ski ramp is very often the limiting factor to low action and bent notes fretting out. Solution, mill down the fret board extension frets creating fall-away.

5) Nut slots if too low can cause buzzing on open notes and if too high can create intonation problems.

6) Pups - yes your pickups can be the offender too. Some folks like to have their pickups very close to the strings in an effort to either impact balance or output. Pups are magnetic, strings are metal, place the pup too close to the strings and the magnetic pull can encourage a vibrating string to vibrate into the frets. Very common and very easy to fix, lower the pups and see manufacturer recommendations for safe spacing.

7) Too much relief, too little relief, incorrect relief such as less on the bass side and more on the treble side. Solution adjust relief AND/OR fret and level in a manner that imparts proper relief where you want it and where you don't.

8) Although less common - rubber necks as Dan as in Earlywine would say. This is why he developed the neck jig for and the idea is that when the instrument is in the playing position gravity changes what we see when evaluating the fret plane.

A newly refretted guitar should be capable of playing better than when it was new. Seriously a precision fret dress is something that does not come from f*ctories, unfortunately including G*bson with their penchant for PLEKs.

Having the radius increase near the edges of the fret board is caused by over radiusing when leveling the board except on say 50's G*bsons and earlier, G*bson back in the day would use a wire wheel in the fretting process that would roll over the edges of the fret board AND leave little plateaus under the fret ends. This is pre-nib days that I speak about.

Bad strings are also far more common than most of us would like.... At times a bad string can be the issue, solution, replace the stinkin string and never by that brand again...

Good fret work is an art and can take some time and lots of experience to learn but the results can be huge differences for the players.


I really think it's the lack of any fall-away that's causing the higher notes to choke. And I think the inconsistent radius is why it chokes even more on bends. I'd never even heard of fall-away until yesterday as I was Googling all this.
If I have enough relief in the next for most of the fretboard to be playable (albeit with a high action) the action at the 21st fret is actually a fraction lower than at the 12th.
I think you're right. Using a file that was too short, I didn't realise that the closer spacing of the high frets distributes the files pressure and means it has less effect there on each stroke. So, each leveling I had to do, made the issue worse.
I have a spirit level with a flat steel base that's about the length of the whole fingerboard, so, I guess I can just stick some paper to the bottom of that.
As for creating some fall-away...the only video on Youtube that I found in several hours of watching videos that even mentioned it, the guy just put some tape on the 11th (I think) fret to tilt the levelling block slightly, and only had paper on half of it so as to not sand through the tape. Is that the usual method?
I could pay a tech to do it - there are two in my area, but really, where's the fun in that?

As for the pickups...Lately, I HAVE been getting the warbling sound high up the neck of a pickup that's too close, but I get it even when the pickup is far away. And I never used to get it at all. Problem is: I've been so out of the picture lately, that I can't remember if it's only been with this set of stings.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:47 pm 
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Mahogany
Mahogany

Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:04 pm
Posts: 41
Focus: Repair
Status: Amateur
B. Howard wrote:
Yes, a FB with an inconsistent shape/radius can cause the types of problems you describe.

While some claim to hear a difference in stainless frets I myself cannot.


Well, as long as I don't put notches in them within a day or two, I'll be happy. I need to use a lighter touch, maybe playing a guitar that doesn't need a really high action and lots of finger pressure will help with that


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