Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello,

I have a Norman B20. It's an older steel string guitar. It was given to me by a friend because it was broken. I fixed the neck by screwing on an alluminum brace. And it sounded fine. Then I replaced a cross brace on the sound board. It was broken and allowing the sound board to crack near the top. Then I took off the old bridge which was splitting and not holding the saddle tightly. But now that I have it all back together it has a LOT of vibration and doesn't give a pure sound. The location of the saddle may be a tad (1/64") too close to the 12th fret. Could that cause the vibration?

I'd appriciate any advice.

Thanks

You should stop. Right now.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Perhapse someone else could say something, only with more information reguarding the reasons behind their advice.

Screwing an "aluminum brace" is not fixing the broken peghead. You've damaged it further, making competent repairs in the future more difficult. And from your description of your other attempts at repair, I have no idea what is causing the odd sound.

Post pics if you want real help.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

The guitar played just fine after I put the aluminum on the neck. It didn't cause any problems, and I only have four small screw holes that could be considered damage. They would be easy to fill in if I ever decided to do a proper fix. The neck broke at the glue joint of the peghead and reglueing didn't hold. I used Tightbond glue. But that's the reason for the aluminum brace.

My problems started after I "fixed" the broken brace on the sound board and put on the new bridge. I guess I should have done those fixes one at a time, so I would have known what caused the problem.

The brace I took out was the bottom of the two large braces that from an X pattern. I had to break it where the other piece overlaped. the new piece I put in is not the same weight as the piece I took out. But I didn't consider that weight could affect the sound.

The new bridge is slightly oversized compared to the old one. Right now my guess is the location of the bridge is causing too much vibration. But I wanted some advice before I take it off and regluing it.

Friend, I hate to sound like a broken record - but the time to ask for help was before you attempted 3 repairs.
Now - post some pics, and maybe we can shed some light on your problems....

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I agree with Chris. Stop now before you do any more damage! Breaking one leg of an X brace and sticking in another bit of wood is not an effective repair and will seriously adversely affect the integrity of the top. Take it to a repair man or if you want to tackle it yourself then post photos seek advice here before you do anything else!

Cheers, Bob

Hello, I've taken several pictures. They are 3.5MB .jpgs. I am having trouble uploading them and wonder, do I need an administrator to OK my uploading images?

Also, I need to mention that I fited the saddle to the saddle slot myself and it fits very tight. But I don't know if the bottom is resting evenly against the bridge.

Hi Dan.
3.5mb images are too large. You will need to downsize them a lot in order to post them. I'm not sure what the maximum size allowed is, but most that I've seen are under 100 kilobytes.
I agree with the other posters, you need to ask for advice before going ahead with the repair.
BTW the saddle should fit the slot snugly but you shouldn't have to force it in. If you can remove the saddle just file or sand a small amount from the area that is binding till it fits properly, if you don't know if it is seated on the bottom of the slot, just measure the depth of the slot, insert the saddle, mark the exposed saddle at the bridge top, then remove it and measure from the bottom of the saddle to the mark.
Cal

_________________
Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

Dan... tried PhotoBucket or other photo hosting sites?
They automatically reduce pic sizes to manageable levels.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

I uploaded some images to Flickr.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/128061 ... 7886411636


If there's a better way to do this than a link let me know.

OK, Dan - I've looked at your pix, and I see the problem. Your "repair" of the broken peghead is terrible. No wonder the Titebond didn't hold. You can't have a huge sloppy gap like that and expect it to hold.

Same with the bridge - sloppy gap. Glue squeeze out everywhere. The bridge is obviously not on straight, and it's tilting forward. Looking at the closeup of the bridge, you can see the bridge pins don't fit right because the bridge is in the wrong area. Probably the source of your "12 string" sound.

I see the action is also very high, which is not helped by your poor repair of the bridge. I see you cracked the top working on the braces underneath.

You've not done a good job at all, Dan. But since it's a cheap guitar, there's no real loss. Perhaps it can be fixed by someone with patience and a little competence.

So.... going back to the top of the thread.... STOP. Right now.

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

There are several ways to repair the broken headstock, but hardware and screws just isn't one of them.
A tight, clean glue joint, like Chris suggests would be a good start. Then thinning the back of the headstock and adding a backstrap would do the trick, but only if you have the skill set to do it.

Alex

_________________
"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Maybe guitar repair is not for you.......Stick to playing them and have fun with that.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian , please don't take this wrong. Your signature under the statement made me smile

Totally off topic but I went to your website love your inlay work.

I'm not looking for something pretty like a professional guitar that can be resold. I just want it to function. And the peghead fix does just fine. My guitar played well for over a year after I fixed it with the brace no problems. I've already tried to explain that. So why is everyone hungup on my unorthodox fix? It works!



I didn't clean the glue yet, because I don't know if I'm going to need to reglue it. Sure the bridge looks like it's at an angle, but that's because the saddle slot is possitioned at the distance from the inside of the nut to the 12th fret plus the width of the 1st/6th string, as I've read it should be.
I don't have tools to cut my own saddle slot, so I had to work with what I got. I drilled the holes for the pins, maybe they sould be a little bigger.



I can only do so much with the action as it's an old guitar and the sound board is warping both at the fret board and the bridge. The crack is from the brace being broken for so long. That's why I replaced the brace. I'd appriciate it if you got your facts for on that one .

If you really want to offer constructive critisizm I'd appriciat it. But so far it seems you're too busy mocking my guitar.

Nobody is mocking your guitar and I have not read a single contribution that suggests anyone is. The contributors have been offering constructive criticism. Whether you believe them or not ( I would be inclined to as they have a collective guitar building experience in excess of well over 100 years!) that headstock "repair" is not doing the job. Neither is your repair of the x brace as the leg you broke off and replaced is not attached to any other part of the x brace (other than a glued butt joint) so is not doing the job it was supposed to do. Same goes with the bridge which will never work correctly unless you sort it properly. You cannot bodge these repairs and expect to get a workable instrument. You will never get this guitar into a playable state unless you take on board the advice given which is given in good faith by experienced people who are willing to share on this forum. If you cannot accept that you need to have a little humility, stop arguing with people who know what they are talking about and take on board that you need to follow the advice given or accept the fact that the task may be beyond your capabilities, then you are not going to get the result you are looking for.

Cheers, Bob

Since you have all the answers, Dan - why did you come here looking for help?

_________________
"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Thanks for the compliment and no offense taken. This thread is the proof of the statement in my signature. You never know what you can or cannot do until you put forth a sincere effort to accomplish it. It is obvious the OP has put forth time and effort but at this time is falling short of the mark. The question he then needs to ask is why? Was it lack of manual dexterity and physical skill or lack of Knowledge? Or perhaps I feel a bit of both. As Chris and others have pointed out the repairs are really non functional in many ways. I remember when I first started to work on guitars, I ruined a few of them including a rather nice LP. So the OP needs to now consider whether this was the end or the beginning.......Repairing guitars is both physically and mentally taxing at the same time and not everyone is cut out for it, even as a hobby.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Proof positive! I'm 53 years old wouldn't even string my own guitars until this year. I've watched and done minor assistance on repair work. What an art to get it back to playing right .( or even better than it ever did )

I do need help. I know that. But, while telling me what I'm doing isn't right is helpful, it's not teaching me how to do it right. And I'd like some positive advice as well as "don't do that".

I've already called a repair shop and it would cost way more than I'm willing to pay to have a professional work on it. And the truth is they would just tell me to buy a new guitar anyhow. I don't have the budget to do that.

I was just hoping that the "100 years experience" of the professionals would be enough to help me fix the strange reverbiration I'm getting. I know that's a big challenge because they can't hold the guitar or listen to the sound. But I thought if I described my situation someone might be able to tell me some things to try inorder to troubleshoot the problem.

And in case it's not clear from the picture. The peghead is glued and solidly in place. I have the brace on so the strings would have to pull hard enough to bend the brace before breaking the glue joint. It was that way for over a year before I tried to fix the X brace and bridge. The weird revirberation started after my repairs of those later two things. I was concerned it was the location of the saddle because it plays cords about 10 Hz sharp (I think that's what my tuner measures, I don't have it right now.) . I don't know know if that's too far off.

Can I have any help troubelshooting this?

Dan, Chances are you've got more than one thing happening to cause your problems.
1. You say your bridge saddle is in the wrong position.
When you replace a bridge on a guitar the replacement should be an exact copy or replica of the original bridge, if it is not, you will run into the tuning problems that you are having. To fix this, you need to make an exact replica of the bridge you removed, and glue it in the exact same spot. If you have the old bridge you need to cobble it back together and make a copy of it, not the easiest job for a beginner, but still it could be done with some woodworking skills and patience. If you no longer have the old bridge, you will need to make a bridge to cover the old bridge position with the string peg holes matching the existing ones in the top, but without the saddle slot cut. This method requires some special tools and jigs, as you would have to measure and cut the new slot in the bridge with it glued to the guitar top. = Not a job for a beginning repair person.
Hopefully you still have the old bridge.
2. You say that you removed part of the main X-brace and replaced it with another brace that you made. The main x-brace is the backbone of the skeletal structure of a guitar top so now your guitar has a poorly repaired broken back. This will affect the longitudinal strength of the guitar top and eventually it will fail. The x-brace is part of a system if it was loose but still in one piece it should have been reglued in place.
3. I noticed some fairly major cracks in the top of the guitar on either side of the bridge. I suspect that one or both of these cracks may be the source of your "12 string sound" along with a loose brace or two that you may not have noticed inside. Cracks such as these should be repaired as they can be the source of buzzes and vibrations along with loose braces. You can check for these vibrations by dampening the strings and tapping with a knuckle, on the top of the guitar to try and locate any buzzes and vibrations. It may be better to take the strings off the guitar. You will need to tap all over and around the cracks and where the braces run inside the instrument. Also make sure you wrap the machine heads with a towel to keep them from vibrating so as not to confuse where the vibrations are happening.
Hopefully this will give you a few things to try in order to troubleshoot your guiitars problems.
Let us know what you find out.
Cal

_________________
Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

Hello, Thank You for your help.

I'll take a look at those things and see what I can do. Unforunatally, I'm travling and won't make it home to work on my guitar until November. When I do, I'll let you know how things go.

Hello,

I decided to try the simple solutions first. I took out the saddle and sanded it thinner so I could easily take it in and out without the use of plyers. Then I filed the holes for the pegs a little larger. And that fixed the strange sound. I don't know why such small changes fixed it. But I'm certainly glad they did. Thanks for the help.

+100!