Official Luthiers Forum!

Thank you for that Johno. It's still no excuse for us not to do what we say we will but, it's a great attitude toward the craft, and I share it with you.

Sylvain is right about almost everything though. He knows first hand, what a difficult situation we've found ourselves in - it's exactly the same as it was when HE sat in this seat. He speaks with the voice of experience.

ASIA does need input...articles, etc...from the assembled multitude. You do not have to be a world class writer, as my article on how I got into OM size instruments illustrates. But with a spell checker, and a proof reader to catch the properly spelled words used in the wrong place (just how many there's are their to choose from and what if they're used incorrectly? )
So, if you have done something neat in lutherie, have some interesting experiences, developed a technique, etc, etc,...SHARE IT.
It would be a true shame if the association and the magazine dissappear...we will be the losers!

In defense of the internet and sites like this, their not *free* at all, I work in the industry and I can tell you that it's not cheap running a great site like this. Like it or not, this is a *FAR* more efficient means of communicating to the lutherie community than newsletters, magazines or symposiums.

There's nothing wrong with any of those things, but when I have problems I can ask my fellow builders here and get any number of answers, even to odd questions. In a symposium I can certainly get some of that but it's temporary, newsletter and magazines are static. But with sites like this I can build relationships with other builders and be part of a dynamic community, This is what the internet was designed for, disseminating information across a wide range of systems.

I think Lance and Brock have done a stellar job on this site, I have given more than my share of funds to Lance because I have learned more here than from any organization or user group. Let's be careful not to lump sites like this into something lesser than it deserves, there's been alot of hard work and effort put into this site and others and I think the builder community is all the better for it.

My issue with ASIA is exactly what Bill and Sylvan have stated, they promised and never delivered, more to that point I don't recall any letters from the organization explaining their dilema or asking for help (could be I've missed them just to be clear). I joined to be part of a community even if I knew from listening to Frank they where having problems in 2003, I was in hopes they could overcome them because I think the builder community needs organizations like ASIA and GAL, the symposiums may be great but some of us don't have the luxury to fly off to some eastern city for a conference on our own dime.

Bill I wish you well, and hope you and the other board members can get things back on track, if you can present some semblance of a plan to get things back on track I would happily re-sign up and even offer up some articles if needed. I just don't want to throw money at the problem, because that doesn't seem to be the issue.

-Paul-Sprockett38401.9020833333

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

[QUOTE=johno] Sheeeeze,

If you join ASIA with the “what will I get out it” attitude… don’t bother, that is not the spirit of the organization. I would like to see 4 magazines a year but that's not what I pay my dues for.   I pay my dues to ASIA (and the GAL) to help further the craft. The people in the origination are dedicated to that.

[/QUOTE]

I think a lot of us are charitable. I have my favorite charity but its not a professional organization. If I join and pay my dues with the understanding that 4 journals are coming per year then I expect at least that. I do not feel that its petty to expect the organization to uphold their end of the bargain.

ASIA has had time to get its act together. It now should find a way to become dependable if it really wants to accomplish its mission of furthing the "Craft". I will probably join this year, send in my money, with the sinking feeling that it will disappear into a quagmire of uncertainty and unproductivity.

And why not compare magazines. The two publications are in competition with each other for my money. Both organizations claim to represent the growth of the craft and both claim to educate. What does it matter that one is an all volunteer organization and the other has professionals. The end results is what counts.

I'm still ticked about sending in 50 dollars or more several years ago and getting two magazines. Makes me wonder if I supported the craft or a slush fund.John Kinnaird38401.9153009259

Thanks Hank! Your continued patient support is greatly appreciated.

Paul, we're going to do everything in our power to earn your confidence back.

John, the only problem with comparing GAL and ASIA is that, though both are non-profit organizations, GAL DOES have a full time paid staff all under one roof, and can devote 100% of their time to the organization, the magazine, and Healdsburg.

ASIA, on the other hand, with the exception of two - part time - paid positions, is run by volunteers who have their own businesses, and are spread out all over the country. The division of labor stacks up a little differently between the two organizations and, any comparison between them is like apples and oranges.

Now, having made those distinctions, it is not my intension to excuse ASIA from executing it's duties faithfully. I think we're all in agreement here that the ball has been dropped on numerous occasions, and at various times over the years. What we're here to do now is work as hard as we can to make it work, and work well.

It is my sincere hope that we can earn your confidence back as well.Bill Moll38402.0059375

Bill you've already done a good job of it so far, by being honest and admitting that there are problems and a tough road to follow I think your already halfway there :)

I'll send in my renewal this coming week and look forward to what you have in store, May I suggest that you consider sending out a notice to all members once you decide on a game plan, a little concise communication can go miles in repairing a situation like the one you've inherited.

Thank you.

-Paul-

_________________
-Paul-

Patriot Guitars

Folks: Nice place you have here! My first time, and I'll be back. ASIA sure
doesn't have a "slush" fund, that's for sure.

There are enough issues, and problems that we've had to deal with in
ASIA over the past 2-4 years that it'd be hard to chat all these out in a
Forum.

Without the almost-impossible efforts of Dick Boak, ASIA has been tough
to run since; but we are learning. Dick, of course, had strong support at
Martin from Chris Martin on down — that helped ASIA out immensely.

The magazine issue is, and has been, a problem but we're trying to keep
things together and grow again.

I know for a fact that Frank Ford and spend a great deal of time and
energy in sharing information with anyone interested. I've had support
from StewMac much like Dick Boak had from Martin, and Jay Hostetler
had when he was board director.

A good number of prime movers in the organization have become more
busy in their lives, and more successful — hence we don't see a good
number of the faces at a Symposium that we've been used-to seeing, and
we miss the experience that earlier board members had. Of course those
earlier board members were part of the Dick Boak team, and when they
became in charge things were fairly solid I believe.

Stuff happens, though, and there is no sense re-hashing who did what to
a lesser degree than the earlier board. What matters to many of us is that
we'd like to see ASIA pull out of the tail-spin. It's not easy, but it can be
done. To keep ASIA alive we've been trying this, and trying that, and
learning what works and what doesn't. However when members quit
because they didn't get something they were promised, and pass a
"sinking ship" message to others, sure things get worse.

I feel embarrassed, as does the entire board, to think that we have let you
down. We're close to being able to swing it again but we still need
positive energy and a little bit of money. Belonging to ASIA is not all that
expensive, but sure, we should get a magazine regularly. When we have
a strong member base it finances the org. and allows us to exist.

How many are coming to Symposium? I worry about our commitment to a
college to hold a Symposium — there are lots of financial guarantees that
must be made to do this. Rick Davis has done a very good job of pulling
together Symposiums even while an aging membership started not
attending (too much work due to success in their trade).

A great deal of prominent luthiers would tell you that an
invaluable springboard into the field, and to their growth and success,
was because of the many hundreds of friend they made through ASIA —
friends that help and share.

I can't imagine not having belonged to ASIA for 19 years, and attending
the symposiums — I learned so much. For many of us ASIA has already
done what we'd like it to do for everyone – help us along the road to
success in our trade. I was 41 when I discovered ASIA and the GAL. I'd
heard about them, but stayed holed-up in my own little shop world.

I'm 60 years young now, and I could ride out my career with or without
ASIA and GAL because I've already been a strong part of it. I still will, and
want to, be part of ASIA. I love to contribute to workshops and the whole
education thing. I would be more pleased to stay on the sidelines and
watch some younger, energetic members take over and get involved. This
means articles, ideas, support, and taking part in producing the
Symposiums which hold us together and put money in the ASIA bank
account.

If ASIA fails everyone will lose something special. I hope that: 1) all of the
ASIA members that belong will continue on for the present at least; 2)
past members that have quit will reconsider joining again; and that new
members will find us and have the energy to help, and enjoy the
excitement that so many of us have been lucky to have in years past.

You can't lose what you ain't never had of course, but trust me — when
ASIA gets back up — and we can — you'll be as happy as I will.

Dan Erlewine

Thanks Dan, and Bill for your insight and commentary. And welcome Both of you to the Luthiers Forum.

I joined ASIA late last year and received a package with 3 issues, the 4th yet to come. I found all 3 very informative, and really enjoyed seeing our own Hank Mauel, Tim McKnight and Craig Lavin featured in them.

I will re-up this year for sure, and plan to continue my support. I personally feel that ASIA is in many ways like the Church I attend. We all have to give to keep the church alive and functioning at a level capable to do what we all come there for.
As the older folks leave the responsibility falls on the younger in the congregation to step it up and make sure that the Church resources are there now and for our children years down the road. That means both monetary well as voluntary efforts.
Sometimes our giving is evident and easy to see where it goes, as in our Church expansion, other times its harder to see, but even then, there are bills to be paid, and every Sunday, theres a warm, dry, soft seat waiting for me.

I guess the analogy I'm trying to make is that we all need to work as a group, now and in the future to further the craft. Us newer folks need to step forward and offer to help. For years ASIA has been ONE of the few publications we can actually put our hands on. I mean is a magazine call Guitar Maker for crying out loud! How cool is that! Is sure would be a crying shame to see it go away.

Ok, I'm done

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

I'm quite happy for all of you to tell me to mind my own business as a foreign interloper (on this issue anyway!)

I belong to a number of volunteer organisations over here and with all of them, the membership will only get out of the organisation what they are willing to put in. For many years I was the editor of the Geological Society magazine and it was the devil's own job getting the membership to contribute articles on time and anywhere close to printable, we were supposed to get 4 a year but I was more than happy if I managed three on time! It is a thoroughly thankless task, which one person can handle for only a short period, before going quietly mad.

We have no comparable luterie organisations here, I would give my eye teeth to be able to belong to one here that served our community of guitar builders, but we have never reached a critical mass of builders. That is why I find this forum so valuable.

I would say it is almost the duty of every guitar builder over on your side of the pond to support your lutherie associations, just imagine what all the US guitar builders working together could achieve! Don't leave it up to someone else.

Colin

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I can't seem to post. I'm new here.

dan erlewine

I am a student-hobbyist, not a professional, and I have different needs/
requirements than those who depend on lutherie for their livelihood.
Nevertheless, I found the ASIA symposium in 2003 to be tremendously
inspirational and educational and I believe that would be true for more
accomplished artisans as well. It was marvelous. I even got to see and
hear (and hopefully learn from) Real Live Lutherie Celebrities: Dan
Erlewine, Frank Ford, TJ Thompson, Al Carruth, Serge DeJonge, Richard
Hoover, Linda Manzer, Tom Ribbecke, John Monteleone, Grit Laskin, to
name a few. I had the pleasure of finally meeting John O in person (we go
way back, way back to an eBay auction - I bought a side bender from him
- but that's another happy story!) and so many others including Mike
Mahar, Craig Lavin, David Berkowitz, Michael Greenfield. Rick Davis
worked
himself to the bone, now I know where he gets the Running Dog moniker.
This organization in incredibly valuable!

I am a newcomer to ASIA so I know nothing about the past and present
foibles of the organization. If ASIA needs help why aren't we hearing
about it, except via the frustrations and disappointment of those who
have posted here in this thread? Why isn't Rick Davis or Bill Moll or
others in its administration sending out an SOS? I must confess that I am
fairly naive when it comes to organizational dynamics - for the most part
I have been able to duck them in my professional life - and perhaps
what I am suggesting is not appropriate. But there are numerous
references to the problems with ASIA's board, membership, etc. I am still
in the dark as to what the issues are. So if there are problems, how about
talking about what's going on?

- NaivivVivian38402.4770949074

There's something funny going on with the forum software. I believe
Lance is aware. If you login, try to post, and get a weird error message
("800fff" or something like that) your message is still posted. At least
that's what has been happening when I try to post.

Looking forward to more of your comments!
Viv

Dan,
Were having a few technical issues with the server the forum is currently on, your posts should be getting through even if you get the error screen.

Next week we go on a dedicated server I purchased and Brock Poling is housing.

LanceK

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Support the OLF! Bookmark our STEWMAC link Today!
Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Lance,

Thanks for the welcome, your continued support of ASIA, and for the Church analogy! Ribbecke and I have always joked that our shops are like our sacred temple or something - a place to meditate, to comune with a higher power and ponder the unpoderable, but then, there were a lot of chemicals going around in the 60's...

Colin,

Being "over there" doesn't make you any less a member of "our" community and, I'm sure everyone agrees that your input and opinions are valuable. Thanks for your support as well.

I've spent a lot of time over these last 24 hours between this fourm, ASIA's, and answering private e-mails about the predicament ASIA finds itself in and, I'm encouraged by most of what I read. Folks DO seem to want us to survive and thrive, and more importantly, everyone seems to understand that their contributions to the association, (monitarily of course, but more importantly, their valuable time and efforts), are what will create the environment we need to push for positive change. I thank all who have lent support and encouragement, and to those who are still skeptical, I wholeheartedly understand. We'll do our very best to earn your trust and confidence back.

Bill

P.S. Vivian, thank you for your input as well. I suppose that these very discussions that we've been having in vatious venues DO serve as an "SOS" of sorts, and they were spurred by those complaints you mentioned so diplomatically.

It is my observation that ASIA is NOT in emergency crash-dive at this very moment. It's not a "house of cards" - ready to fall, however; persistent problems ARE eating away at it's viability as an organisation and these problems must be attended to quickly.

It is also my belief that ASIA has NOT comunicated with the Lutherie community at large, and more specifically it's membership, nearly well enough and that this open and honest discussion of the situation at hand is a first step toward correcting THAT issue.



Bill Moll38402.4771527778

Well, I would like to thank all the ASIA leadership who have showed up here to discuss this important topic.
I just renewed my membership less than 5 minutes ago. I was planning to renew for quite awhile, but just procrastinated.
The leadership has my support, and will continue to do so. If I were in better steads financially, I would join as a lifetime member. Perhaps in the future.
Thanks for your service to the lutherie community.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

   ASIA is going to continue to get my support. I think there is enough interest to keep the ball rolling and I will be there to see that it keeps going and do what I can.
    

Hey Everyone,

Well I haven't completed one guitar yet, but I do consider myself a luthier, or, more like a maker of quality kindling at this point.    I had not considered joining ASIA, but after the very honest and up-front posts from Frank, Don, Bill, and others involved directly with ASIA, I just paypaled my membership dues. If there are problems, let's fix them. I want to be part of the solution, and at this point, joining ASIA is probably the best way I can contribute, and help turn things around.

Jeff
(ASIA member since 5 minutes ago!)

Bill
I wish you the very best in this interprise. I have wanted to have an organization that rivaled and even surpassed GAL, and primarily because ASIA seems to be centered closer to me I was hoping ASIA could be the one. Tacoma is diagonally across the country from Social Circle Ga. and their symposiums, though great, are a long way off.
All of the good sentiments expressed above are fine but they should not cloud the fact that ASIA must be competative. They are looking for the monetary support of members, and they need articles and input. But, if they do not establish a presence with clock like regularity, the participation of all but the most ardent supporters will vanish. ASIA needs contributors and well wishers to be sure, but they need even more a subscribing constituency and to keep these folks the perception of viablity and permanence mean more than the feeling that all builders need a good organization.
My advice. Build the magazine, they will come.

John K

Well, its nice to see this thread bring some new and valuable members to this forum.

There has been mention of some builders' celebrity status, and I'm inclined to think that participation in organizations like ASIA and the GAL must have something to do with that.

I've never joined ASIA, but I am going to for this year. Organizations like this surely could not be easy to run, and I think the clear honesty in this thread by Bill Moll, Frank Ford, and Dan Erlewine speaks volumes. If I spend my $55 and get three instead of four issues of Guitarmaker, I won't take it personally - especially knowing that people who otherwise have guitars to make and repair care enough to volunteer their time toward something that benefits us all.

At any rate, the attention Mr. Moll, Ford and Erlewine are giving the issue - on a public forum no less - is reassuring.

Best wishes,
Joshua French

_________________
Instagram: @jfrenchluthier
Web: https://www.jfrenchguitars.com/

[QUOTE=Bill Moll]

Colin,

Being "over there" doesn't make you any less a member of "our" community and, I'm sure everyone agrees that your input and opinions are valuable. Thanks for your support as well.


[/QUOTE]

Bill, Don't worry, the members on the OLF have made me feel a real part of their community, I have found being part of the forum here both an enlightening and humbling experience and I'm truly proud to be a member. I have learned much from the 'experts' that converse on this forum and my views and opinions have always been listened too and taken seriously - Hey, I a 'senior member' after all and let's face it, I'm the only real Lutherer here as I do build lutes!

If I lived stateside I would not only be an ardent but enthusiastic ASIA member, and would be proud to be so, as I believe that only knowledge shared is knowledge of value. My point being that such organisations should be nurtured and cherished by all with an interest in the craft. But as an American organisation, I do come at it as an 'outsider'. I believe that if men of goodwill want it to succeed, then it will.

ColinColin S38402.5677314815

_________________
I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

[QUOTE=Sprockett] In defense of the internet and sites like this, their not *free* at all, I work in the industry and I can tell you that it's not cheap running a great site like this. Like it or not, this is a *FAR* more efficient means of communicating to the lutherie community than newsletters, magazines or symposiums.
-[/QUOTE]

I understand “running” a forum site is not free, but to gain access to it and take information from it is. I am glad that you have gotten so much out the OLF. I have too. I also applaud the fact that you have “donated” to this site. Many of us have, and continue to support the financial aspects of this site (and others) through sponsorship, material and fiscal donations.

Yes websites can more efficient (than journals) at getting your communications out to “some” of the community and to get your questions answered so quickly and efficiently. I agree. There are other advantages too. I wasn’t trying to trash this site at all when I spoke if the #@$internet. I visit this site daily and yes Lance (and others) have done a great job on it. I just think that personal contact is also important. Not that getting a journal is personal contact but once again I think the GAL and ASIA are more than that.

[QUOTE=Sprockett]the symposiums may be great but some of us don't have the luxury to fly off to some eastern city for a conference on our own dime -[/QUOTE]

I haven’t been out to the west coast GAL convention but I still support it. I am sure indirectly that I have learned from it. Articles have been written based on lectures presented there and I am sure some tip or trick that I learned on this forum came directly from one of the veterans lecturing at the GAL. Isn’t that how a lot of you learned about waterborne finishes? No you learned about them here! Well where do you think “most” of that info came from to begin with … (Doolin and Greven at the GAL)

I am glad that some of you have seen through the smoke and know that ASIA is more than just a magazine subscription. For those of you that say producing a quarterly journal isn’t rocket science, well I have to agree, but what a challenge it must be to come up with new, interesting and professional articles for twenty years. Sure the first journal might be easy, but keep doing it year after year. Good luck.

I understand Sylvan’s frustration with ASIA and the untimeliness of the journals. If anyone has a right to complain I guess it would be him. He has volunteered his time to organization and became frustrated. I also think that it is good to open up a discussion on the future of ASIA however I am a little disappointed at the “mob mentality” of “ASIA has done nothing for me at all,” so I quit. Ask not what your ASIA can do for you, but …. (ok a little corny)

[QUOTE=Jeff Doty] I want to be part of the solution, and at this point, joining ASIA is probably the best way I can contribute, and help turn things around.
[/QUOTE]

Now that's the spirit of ASIA


johno38402.6055208333

OK, that did it! Bill Moll, Dan Erlewine and Frank Ford coming to the forum just to explain some of why things are as they are at ASIA.

Looks to me like the new leadership is certainly worth taking a chance on. I'll be joing up next week, if not sooner.

Seriously guys, thanks for coming here and sharing your thoughts and opinions with us. It give me the confidence boost I need to shell out the bucks and give it another chance.

_________________
Dave Rector
Rector Guitars

WOW...what a thrill to have some of the "Legends of Lutherie" visit the forum. I appreciate the time all of you have taken in explaining your mission as well as freely discussing how you're all committed to making ASIA better than ever.

That's all I needed to hear because you guys have credibility out the wazoo! Sign me up!

BTW...How about stopping by more frequently to discuss the fun stuff...we need more alpha-builders to referee issues from time to time as well as to provide the wisdom rookies such as myself crave and for the vets to perhaps put a few new arrows in their quivers.

_________________
JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Well... Two Legends and one recalcitrant miscreant

We'd love to come by more often but, we've got our own burgeoning forum over at ASIA. Why, just this week I think we had over 2 1/2 posts! Whew! there's just a lot to be done.

Hank, Did you get the reply I sent to your message? I got the catastrophic melt down, or whatever, message when I hit send.Bill Moll38402.6824189815

You know, in public education, they had to browbeat the teachers into submission to join professional organizations. (they saw no benefit to themselves personally) I was resistant for sure. Plus it was more like $350 a year dues. I led a bunch of teachers astray, some who'd paid it for twenty years or more.

Now, this lutherie organization thingy is a bit different. These are orgs for me and what I do for a living and passion. Due to this discussion, I'm signing up with not only ASIA, but renewing my GAL as well.

With this fine forum, the Luthier's Corner (AG), the 13th Fret, ASIA's forum, gee, you can quickly find answers and resources to help with many a problem. The problems are understandable, as are the feelings of getting raw deal, but it's time to get off the sidelines and pay a little dues.

Thanks guys for each of you who've shared your secrets in any way and for your volunteer efforts to the ends of advancing lutherie. Bruce