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Thanks to Andy Birko at birconium.com for making me some parts. I am building a machine now and have a question regarding an ATC. Has anyone seen, used or have any opinion on this http://www.midwestrapidtool.com/index.htm

I really don't have a working knowledge regarding how many tools I will need for a neck or body or fingerboard. I am planning on making a lot of jigs too.

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Ken

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Ken

Hey Andy, take a look. My CAD guru (Dan) designed this EXCELLENT jig after Andy machined out the parts for me I assembled it and it took 5 minutes to do a reliable job of gluing ribs to blocks.

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Ken

Some great ideas there Ken!

Three tools for a fingerboard: largest ball you can get, 1/8" flat, and a fret slot cutter.

Three tools for a neck: 1/2" flat, largest ball you can get, and 1/8" flat for tight headstock contours, truss rod slot, and tuner holes

Two or three tools for a bridge: 1/2" ball, 1/8" flat, and a 1/16" flat if the saddle slot is under 1/8"

I don't like that the ATC spindle is built around a router rather than a proper spindle motor, I think you'd be better off paying the extra 1K and getting the real deal from Keling (AutomationTechnologiesInc now). It doesn't seem remotely worth cutting that corner to me.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thank you guys. I am getting quotes on spindles now. The 2.2kw chinese is at the top of the list. I really don't want to spend thousands on the spindle and VFD. Only if it is THAT much better.

I know a place in Tennessee that recommends for a startup to get the Hitachi routers and put them into a quick connect holder. Like a poor man's tool changer. They are only $120, so I could get one for each of the bits that you recommended and put them each in a dedicated router. When prompted by the software, change the router.

Comments.

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Ken

thanks Dude. It makes things fun when i don't have to struggle...done plenty of struggling in my time

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Ken

Jigs are looking good Ken! How's the pin router one coming?

If you don't go for the ATC, make sure you spend the $20 for this screenset: http://home.comcast.net/~cncwoodworker/2010.html don't wait, buy it right now. It makes tool changes almost as easy as an ATC.

When your code comes to an M6, the machine stops, moves the spindle to a tool change position. You change the tool, press cycle start and walk away. It takes care of the rest.

I think this would be better than the multi-router thing because you don't have to deal with multiple cables, alignment etc. Plus, you'd save enough money that you could get a proper spindle. Heck, if you went the cheap chinese route, you'd save money.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Thanks Andy, and good work again on the machining of the parts. I made a bad choice with having you use MDF for two of the parts. The others work great. Luckily i could easily duplicate them with maple.

the pin router is just waiting to be assembled. I have all the parts but am busy making other guitars so it sits. I think it will come in handy for use on the CNC too.

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Ken

Great looking fixtures.

If you've got the real estate on the router bed, multiple part fixtures (2 bodies or 3-4 necks) get more work done with each tool change. The CAM may take more effort or not w/subroutines, work-shift etc. TC's take up real estate for the rack, and air. Can't imagine not using a spindle but if you just intend to rough-finish cut parts and then hand fit/finish it's more about the noise, speed/feed and inlays which need good accuracy.

Maybe there's another way to do it but one of the most attractive reasons for a tool changer is that you post one partfile per setup vs one partfile per tool. This may or may not sound like much of an advantage but when you've got 8 tool changes per setup, 2 setups per body style, 7ish setups per neck, the files add up pretty quickly. Then there's the management of those files...

I have no experience with chinese spindles. To be honest the setup for a liquid cooled, air assisted tool changing spindle seems daunting. That Porter Cable router system is pretty slick but it's handicapped by the router. PC's are pretty terrible and you really need the machine to be able to match spindle speeds to the tool. I'd recommend researching the Chinese Auto Changer as much as possible. If it works as advertised it will be a much better investment.

After 11 years on a two spindle gantry router and two years on a 21 tool mill, I feel that a tool changer is essential.

Blurry Customs has a new version that looks pretty nice too.

http://store.blurrycustoms.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=46

Dont know if it helps, we have a linear tool changer with 8 tools, so the machine goes to the back of the bed to change tools over, carousel setups are nice but extremely bulky to carry around on the x axis.

Ours is an italian air cooled spindle 9kw, the tool change is air operated

Bottom of the page

http://www.mirwa.com.au/Our_Facility.html

Yes, helpful Mirwa. Thanks.

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Ken

Sheldon, with the screenset I posted (assuming you're using Mach 3), it's the same deal. I haven't owned a machine with a tool changer but dang....this has got to be pretty close. Look at the videos on Ger's site, it's truly a matter of popping out the old bit, popping in the new one and pressing cycle start. No other steps. (I probably shouldn't be giving away these "secrets"!)

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

A spindle is just a 3-phase motor fused to a shaft sitting on bearings, it's not a complex machine but it does need to be machined accurately to work well. If you get one from one of the resellers of imports who support their product (like AutomationTechnologies), then you could probably get an exchange if they don't live up to the published runout specs. That's the way I'd go if I were buying.



My new machine (mid-90's industrial CNC router, American made) has three nice Italian spindles on linear rails with air cylinders...instead of an ATC. Things were weird back in the day...there are a lot of Thermwood's out there with eight...EIGHT...separate spindles on a vertical carousel! Madness, it is.



Those guys make me want to love them with their words, but have a site filled with nothing but Solidworks renders and one picture of a power-coated but unbuilt frame for anything above their hobby level machines has me smelling vaporware. The one video of the spindle on Youtube has them cutting a chunk of 2x10 at about 60IPM, and their videos of their Ultraman machine shows it cutting at <100IPM with huge chatter after a bunch of hullabaloo on the website about 1000IPM cut speeds and 'best of both worlds performance'.

People who know the owner keep saying they're totally above board, but the facts show a company selling a >$20,000 product who can't produce a picture of it after four years in business. Because of that, I get the feeling that the only AVX spindle ever made is the one in the video.

I say all this when my company's webpage is full of Solidworks renders and promises, but we're six months old...we'll have all kinds of Youtubey fun before you can buy the product

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Wow, that is pretty slick.

There's a company in Grand Rapids selling a couple of used 5hp HSD spindles pretty cheap. Not much in the way of pictures to know what is there and what you would have to buy (if available) or make. The full system is >$10k but is heavy and needs a pneumatic damper, 3-phase and uses a lot of air, but the extra power, ATC and 1" tools would be really nice.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HSD-5-HP-18000- ... 20cefa695f

HSD would not rebuild the smaller spindles like the 1073 (3hp) unit I have. They said the parts and labor was too much compared to buying new. I think the 5hp were rebuildable. 3rd parties didn't replace bearings in these either.

I would really like to find something that is more reasonably priced.

Thanks Rand and Sheldon.

I doubt that ebay spindle would even fit on my little gantry router. 5 grand is more than I spent on the kit too. I am leaning towards a chines 2.2kw "throw away" spindle. they can be had for less than 200 bucks and a good VFD to go with it and see how that works for a while. Get the 2010 tool changer app for Mach 3 and start with that. I think I am really going to need the spindle speed control. I want to find the sweet spot where the spindle is not vibrating so I can put a fret bit in with better precision.

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Ken

Thanks Bob, sometimes the marketing BS gets pretty deep.

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Ken

Look for the Chinese spindles that can support at least an ER-20, preferably ER-25 collet so you can run 1/2" tools. Some of those spindles can only do ER-16 ~~ 1/4" tools. With an ER-20 there is very little collet material grabbing the 1/2" shank but probably enough.

Well guys... I went a totally different way. This will allow me to get my feet wet with the machine and hopefully able to use it in my working day while I do some learning.

I have PC routers around here and plan to mount one with a K2 mount, get a good dust hood from kentcnc http://www.kentcnc.net/nc/ and here is the kicker, add a "super PID"http://www.vhipe.com/product-private/SuperPID.htm to regulate the power and spindle speed. The reason for this decision is because of what I learned here and other reading. I have no first hand experience with CNC machines and until I get a feel, smell, sound of the machine I am just guessing. I don't plan on doing a lot of experimenting with material cutting and the other fun stuff; Just mostly cut parts and jigs.

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Ken

The choice of a PC router with superPID is a good one but trust me....buy the screenset from Ger....you won't regret it.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Oh yea, I AM getting that too Andy, Thanks for mentioning it. I should also mention that I got the collet from Precisebits with very low runout.

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Ken

Ken, once you get the Super PID, I'll be happy to help you on the setup. I have been using one for about 3 years now. I love it. MACH3 setup is not intuitive about the setup for it. It's not difficult though.

Also I will try and post a picture of how I added the opto sensor on my PC routers.

Mike

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I'm outside looking in, just farther from the window than most.