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It seems like there are several forums that are more active on pickup winding than OLF... But I get tired to following dozens of boards. I'm about 75% through a design for a CNC pickup winder (or general purpose pickup winder if need be) and figured I would ask. So far it's based on being capable of using external control, such as a computer, or an internal Arduino based programmable system. On top of that, it will be capable of loading G-code programs from a SD/MMC card. To clarify (before I get burned again) this isn't a sales pitch, just a design for DIY-ers at the moment. We're aiming for a total completed cost of around $200. The goal is simple but professional, not to mention the design allows for parallel control so theoretically dozens of identical pickups could be would at the same time. Not to mention production costs per coil will drop as more bobbins are added... which is pretty cool.

Anyways, I just wanted to see if anyone around here is interested. If so, I can post updates and design details as it comes together. I don't think I want to wind pickups for a living, which is a big part of why I think there's no good reason not to make the design open (restricted only to production for yourself or a less technically inclined friend.) If there's interest here, I'll make sure to post updates regularly. This should be a really cool project. One thought that has already come up is taking some dead classic pickups, reverse engineering them, and making the winding patterns open to the world for study. I don't believe in voodoo dust sprinkled over a pickup to give it magic tone. But if there's anything special about winding patterns, tension, and magnet design it's about time for technology to find out what sounds best!

I'm not much of an electric guitar guy, but anything cnc I'm up for seeing. Would love to see the progress on this.

I also have to wonder if there are other applications for a cnc winding machine...like for motors. I'm sure they exist but I'm not really aware of them. I remember seeing a tv show about a Japanese electric car know as the Eliica, which had motors that had a special design which was centered around how they were wound. The Chinese wanted the engineering on that badly, but the Japanese folks who designed it were not willing to part with the design. If you could come up with something similar, you'd be in a good place.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Would you also be offering a non cnc winder kit? I might be interested in a non cnc winder.

Andrew

I don't think we'll be dabbling with anything close to high performance electric motors that more than the Chinese would like to have. Our winders will make great pickups and transformers, and that's pretty much it. There's something fun about designing a high end CNC device and making it possible to fabricate for less than a manual winder (which I've seen pushing $400.)

There's nothing preventing someone from going full manual. But you could do that with a sewing machine and some felt. Does anyone need help going that route? I'd be happy to help with a simple old- school Fender style winder (Gibson used machine wound coils... Even on PAF's!) If you have something special in mind and need help pulling it off feel free to send me a PM. I'm sure what you need will be easier to pull off than you think.

I was thinking more along the lines of something with a speed dial and counter.
I'm sure I could put one together if I was motivated enough, but I haven't gotten around to figuring all of that out yet. So if someone was offering a fairly simple to put together kit, I might be interested in that.
Just a thought.

(p.s. did you get my last pm?)

I am interested Hugh!

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Ken

I'm in the middle of setting up my lathe to wrap some pickups. I'd love to see what you come up with.

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Mike Lindstrom

I'm still looking for a cheap-ish reliable solution for a counter, really. I've got parts and want to try out winding pickups, have an old sewing machine motor with foot control, so don't really need/want to ability to wind multiple pickups quite yet.

I'm interested in all types of winders.

I just finished rewinding two old bad Strat pups I had saved. No traverse on my winder.

I made a winder and used a magnetic reed switch with a Cub3 counter. Easy but...
It stops counting @900 rpms so now I'm trying to figure out how to
set it up with a Hall Effect switch -waiting on all the parts to arrive. Accuracy of count is paramount.

It seems hard for me to find information/schematics for setting up rotation
counters...as if it's a trade secret.

This is more of a response than I expected, but then again pickup winding is surrounded by voodoo and "trade secrets" so making good simple designs available seems like a good idea. I remember getting a book as a teenager detailing how to build your own pickup winder, and it was really more frustrating than anything because there was nothing close to a bill of materials... It basically instructed the reader to get a sewing machine and construct a platform to mount it on as well as fixtures to hold bobbins. Based on feedback it should be easy enough to draw up plans for manual and automatic winders, although the control circuits are pretty cheap and upgrade will be possible after the fact. Thus far everything from a parts standpoint has been off the shelf.

There are tons of ways to set up a counter. I've even seen it pulled off with a calculator. The reason you've probably been having trouble is that building a raw circuit to show turn counts on a LCD is more involved than you give it credit for. It's easy enough to simply have an electronic counter, but LCDs need drivers and controllers to tell them what to do. Thus far our plans involve building around Arduino, and I suggest that you look into it yourself. There are modules with code ready to go including hall effect sensors and a variety of LCDs. If you end up needing to program it, they are incredibly well documented and use a super-simple version of modified C style programming. Look into it, I'm sure you will find what you need.

As an afterthought: does anyone want to have a DIY pickup measurement and testing kit? I've considered it for myself, but know my own interests can get rather esoteric. Thanks to computers it is getting ever easier to measure response curves, aside from factors such as resistance capacitance and inductance. Another cool possibility it raises is duplicating an existing pickup or providing enough information to another winder such that an identical wind could be produced. The only trend I've observed from thousands of tests is that as a rule pickups are being wound hotter over time. My personal favorite set of Strat pickups were wound to early 60s specs on the same winder Leo Fender designed and they have DC resistance in the upper 5k range and all the bell tones and quack anyone could ask for. It's something to think about at least. I guess you could say as a whole I'm the kind of person who dreams of getting technology into the hands of those who want it. In fact, I managed a project that was slashdotted while I was in college that was I one of the first open hardware projects attempted... And definitely too far ahead of its time. It's only getting better at this point.

I guess if there are any other special requests or questions feel free to let me know. I might go ahead and create a site for the project. Being otherwise unemployed it could be worthwhile to put up on kickstarter. When my business can finally pay the bills I look forward to sharing what I can with the DIY community. It might also make aquisition of parts easier for anyone who lacks the resources or equipment to fabricate certain parts. It would also make kits and completed units available. Don't confuse this with advertising I'm just brainstorming aloud.

Hugh, I PMed you but did not hear back from you. I am having trouble with your narrative. I am not sure what you are offering if anything. Now it seems like teasing. Who is "we"? Are you selling something? If so, where can it be obtained? Why don't you just offer something for sale? I might be interested.

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Ken

[quote="hugh.evans"]
I guess if there are any other special requests or questions feel free to let me know. quote]


Where can I purchase a Hall Effect switch kit or IR sensor kit to mount on a winder? Plug and play. No assembly required other than mounting it on the winder. No programming Arduinos required. 5-digit counter included.
100% accuracy to a min. of 2,500 rpm.

At least those trying to scatterwind and build their own winder would have an easier time without having to deal
with learning electronics and programming. A kit would probably be cheaper in the long haul too.

Ken, sorry for the confusion. This is intended more as an announcement and more likely than not, updates will be posted in this thread as well. As for the term "we" it's just a habit whenever I talk about something my company is up to. At the moment, most of the feedback seems to favor a finished product or a RTA kit with no soldering required. I was open to the idea of approaching this as a community developed open-source project, but I'm not catching much of a vibe around here that anyone wants to go that route. *Disclaimer* Since my company is not yet a paying sponsor this is not an advertisement and I am not trying to steal anyone's business. With that said, this coil winder is being designed with a target price of about $200 for a fully assembled CNC unit with on-board controls and the ability to load g-code from a SD/MMC card for complex winding patterns and to accept external control by a computer.

Sandywood, eventually I will have exactly such a product. For the time being, what you need is called an event counter. It's the only way to go if you want something that will not require any soldering or hacking of the device. If you can find one with enough digits, you could also pull it off with a bicycle computer that has a count function. They all use magnets and would be easy to set up. It may take a bit of looking. Grainger seems to have quite a few at reasonable prices but I didn't look at all the details of what they require for triggering.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/search.shtml?gclid=CLvyleqqsbICFYk-MgodMXMAkQ&searchQuery=Electronic+Counter&op=search&Ntt=Electronic+Counter&N=0&GlobalSearch=true&sst=subset&cm_mmc=PPC:%20Google%20Main%204-_-Electrical%3ECounters%20And%20Hour%20Meters-_-Counters%3EElectronic%20Counter%3EBroad-_-Electronic%20Counter&ef_id=1E9QNk8iaXQAAEc9:20120913004916:s

If you're okay with very basic hacking of existing devices: pedometers are probably the easiest and cheapest option and most go up to six digits. I hope you find these suggestions useful. If there are other options you want, I guarantee a nerd could be located to roll a custom one using a PIC or Arduino with a couple of expansion plug-ins and copy and paste all the necessary code to get it up and running. Depending on the display you want, I would probably do a job like that for around $50 (not that I am advertising or otherwise offering to do so.) However, if you need such assistance feel free to send me a PM.

I appreciate the advice but I assume by it you didn't read my first post.

For me winding pups is something I decided to take on as a hobby. Just wanted to do it for myself.
It seemed and still seems that the process can be started simply for one to "get their feet wet" without
much investment. Then decide if it's something they desire to continue with.

Building the winder doesn't require much. Speed control, bobbin mounting preference, rotation direction(s) and
accurate winding count.
I approached it with the thoughts that I would get that far and then decided if I wanted to continue. The only criteria from my list that was and is a problem yet to be solved is the accurate winding count. I used a magnetic reed switch wired directly to a Cub3 counter and it works great but only to about 900 rpm and then it stops.
I'm currently preparing to replace the reed switch with a powered Hall Effect switch that should give 100% accuracy to the rpm limit range of my drive...just under 3,000 rpm.
The issue has been that I'm not into electronics and it seems that the people that are and have built this type of rotation conunter don't care to supply schematics or any info for others. ( I remember 30+ years ago when music theory was handled much the same way
At any rate that is my current status with the counting part of this.

Potting pups has it's issues too. One will run into that when they start dealing with the heating of wax.

I was and I am still surprised that something that seemed simple has so many little problems to sort out just so one can determine if wrapping a very little wire around some magnets is something they really want to do. LOL....but it has been fun.

It's also been a hassle typing this...more than a screen and it just jumps up and down.

I read your original post, and I apologize for being blunt, but springing for a active hall effect sensor and not wanting to deal with electronics at the same seems like a moderately severe mismatch of needs and interest/skill. What I have recommended is to use your hall effect sensor as a trigger for a counter capable of the rates you require. This *will* require some basic skill in electronics to achieve. I have attempted to help, but in all honesty what I am working on is closer to a complete system. When it's ready I will have no objections to making the onboard control system/counter/speed/and if you ever want to move up to CNC it will be ready for you with virtually no learning curve. For the time being, I suggest another forum: http://music-electronics-forum.com/f11/

It seems like the best route to me as I otherwise seem to be causing you frustration and that is not my goal.

I took it that you hadn't because you recommended what I had previously mentioned I had already done.

You are not frustrating me but it is obvious we have a communication breakdown.
I have the Hall Effect sensor and the other components to attempt making it work. I thought I mentioned that but
you are recommending I do it...I have failed in my attempt to relay what I perceive to be the biggest issue for someone
that is attempting to build a simple winder for scatterwinding -just to get their feet wet and see if they want to continue...which is the counter. It would not be such an issue if there were a schematic and material list that one could
purchase.
This forum software has frustrated me though so I'm done. Good luck and luck forward to seeing more options for winders.

Thought I'd give everyone an update on this project since it's been a while. For the sake of simplicity, the development process will consist of a computer driven version of the hardware followed by implementation with Arduino. At the moment, my company is leaning towards making this an open source design and the only restrictions will likely pertain to production of the hardware for sale. The only reason for this being that too much of my own time will go into the design and refining it for production. We are planning to make it available as a finished product and as a kit. There will be no shortage of options: ranging from an extremely basic model for hand winding to a full on CNC model complete with variable tension control with a proper tensioning system.

Stepper motors will be used to drive bobbin rotation direction and speed, as well as the traverse carriage. Winding count will be measured via a hall effect sensor. Tension for this version will likely be something very simple along the lines of a felt pad friction system. A proper CNC tensioner will also be available as part of the complete unit, kit, and as a standalone. Initial tension will be set using pinch rollers in conjunction with either a magnetic particle brake or a magnetic clutch+brake. The wire will feed through a dancer arm thereby allowing for real time tension measurements via a position sensor on the arm. This will be implemented as a closed loop system to ensure consistent control of tension through the entire wind.

I am personally looking forward to studying all of the separable variables involved in pickup designs and scientifically evaluate all of the myths I have come across over the years. Perhaps one of the craziest plans I have involves mathematically the most perfectly random coil possible... Using the algorithm responsible for non-repeating frequency sonar pings. Variables that are usually closely guarded trade secrets by professional winders such as tension and TPL can be studied in depth. We also plan to make a reverse engineering tool available to record the exact winding pattern of a pickup as it is unwound. Not only will this create a historical record during repairs, it will allow for an exact copy of the original coil to be made rather than simply re-winding the coil and hoping it will sound right. Isn't science fun?!?

Anyways, that's where everything stands at the moment. I will post CAD renderings, design details, and pictures as the project progresses.

Ummmmmm... What?

Be careful, science doesn't have the same tried-and-true history of success that magic does in pickup winding

I'm really excited to hear about the experiments and the reverse-engineering, I think it'll be of infinitely greater value than the tool itself.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thanks! The CNC pickup winder is basically a science fair project aside from the one unit we need in-house which will be built up as much as necessary. I agree that reverse winding studies will literally screw up the whole industry and ideally bring an end up all of the voodoo (some of which will never go away.) That's part of the challenge: Finding original dead vintage pickups. While still potentially sinful, there's plenty to be gained from unwinding pre-cbs pickups from less desirable models... especially if they don't work anyways. In the worst case scenario, a "pickup scanner" may be enough to get funding from kickstarter. Everyone wants to know if there are any secrets to great pickups. So do I. The difference is that I'm willing to share my findings and would love to establish a community committed to doing the same. Assuming a big company doesn't pay me a large sum of money to keep quiet.

it kills me that pickups often cost well over a hundred bucks each, when i know materials cost MAYBE 15 bucks, and the pickups are machine wound in asia in about 20 seconds...
i halfheartedly tried to make a winder awhile back, but i never had enough wire to refine my design with
i think a manual/bicyle powered winder would also be very cool!

As long as you don't mind missing a lot of cool features the standalone hand-winding part of this design should have less than $50 in parts. You could go really spartan and scrap a sewing machine... But this design will allow you to start simple while containing the parts to eventually move up to full CNC should you so desire. Technically you could drive the stepper motor using a 555 based circuit, but you would be on your own compared to our Arduino based design that also gives you a nice little LCD that tracks the speed and number of turns as you go.

number of turns shouldn't be as critical as DC resistance measurements(ohms) are...which could be taken periodically by scraping off some insulation. also, it is noteworthy to consider that the initial winds(when the bobbin is empty)would be only a fraction the length of a full turn when the bobbin is getting full, and depending on bobbin height, that could vary a lot....so i'm not necessarily sold on the counter for those reasons. nice to have maybe but by no means critical
.....perhaps a better way of assessing a wind would be to weigh it with a sensitive scale, if you wanted to get cork-sniffy about it....

Got everything working correctly and after
winding with excellent results based on the friends
that have used them- all single coils, Tele and Strat...
I have another fun hobby.

Wasn't to hard...just took a little time to get set-up
and turns out I enjoy it very much. Not something I'd
want to do for a living but it's a great addition to my hobbies.

Doesn't really take much room either. I built a stand/cabinet
that will hold everything. It's about 16"D x 12"W x 32" tall and
holds the waxing kettel, winder and all the materials. Fun stuff.

I suspect you'll have a LOT of interest in this over at the telecaster forum - http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/.

The build competition for 2013 will have a pickup winding component, so there are a ton of pickup winder threads going on right now.