Official Luthiers Forum!

Pine holds screws and nails in the construction field for decades in buildings under loads and stresses much greater than you'll find in a guitar. Not just load bearing, but the torsional stresses from wind, freezing and thawing during the changing of the seasons, as well as, depending on location, small tremors and many other stresses I'm sure I'm not taking into account. That history is proven. In fact, we probably have more history to draw from on pine than any other wood man has ever used. Heck, the stresses on my deck outside are probably much worse than are encountered in the average guitar. As long as you don't overtighten or remove and replace the screws over and over, or use wood that is "punky" and way softer than average, I would not worry about it. But the CA couldn't hurt. MHO.
It is also quite hilarious to me that people will enthusiastically build with heavily spalted woods, stabilize that with epoxy or CA, and not give long term durability a second thought, but mention pine and everybody starts forseeing disaster. Also MHO.

I'd trust a screw in a nice, solid piece of pine long before I trusted one in that, CA or epoxy notwithstanding. Again, MHO.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

FWIW most homes in the northeast built prior to the mid 70's are actually framed with fir and not pine. Pine was only used on cheap construction.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Perhaps. But those woods are/have been used interchangeably for so long(SPF) that the distinction as far as the construction industry is concerned is rather a moot point, regardless of the "quality" of construction. In fact, if I pop into the lumber store and purchase construction grade lumber, it could end up a mixture of either spruce, pine or fir. And it would take someone much more educated than myself and most others to be able to make a determination which it was with any certainty. As much contruction as goes on, I'm pretty well satisfied that pine has made it into a huge number of buildings and other structures. And for the most part it's doing just fine.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

When you build with SPF, you use long, coarse screws designed for soft woods. Guitar hardware tends to come with short, fine thread screws designed for hardwood.

The screws I used in the bridge of the pine bass I built were stainless oval head machine screws, which I used as replacements for the junk screws that came with it. Much finer thread, and they're doing just fine.Been a year now, and rock solid.
Besides, nails are still used quite a bit in pine construction, which have much less ability to "hold" in the wood(they're used a lot more than screws, actually). The pine(or SPF) in general holds them just fine. Again, under much more stress than found in the average guitar. If you've ever framed a house you know this.
I would also add that the fact that factory builders such as Fender, who tend to over build in order to avoid waranty isues, are beginning to build with it tells me they've probably weighed the chances of failure rather well(the bottom line, $$ you know) and decided the chances were good that the pine would do alright. Not that i'd base my building decisions on what factories do, but that's at least something to think about..
In my opinion, the "stress" over whether or not pine can sucessfully hold guitar hardware is overblown. Of course, everyone needs to make their own decisions on what type of wood they build with. For me, pine is just as viable as any other wood available. If i can get my hands on some old(at least 50+ years), well seasoned pine that's clear of knots and cracks, I'll consider myself well blessed, and make it sing. YMMV.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

That is not necessarily true. When I started out all the houses I worked in were framed with Red Fir, not the SPF you know today. It was specified. when you went to the yard to pick up extra lumber there were fir studs and there were pine studs. There was no mistaking one for the other. The fir is a much slower growing tree than the the farm raised pine (spf) you see today and as supplies became depleted and price skyrocketed more white lumber began to be used. The last house I can remember being built entirely from red fir was for the owner of the company I worked for and that would've been about 89-90. Even the plywood on the subfloors was typically fir. The switch to white lumber for framing also coincided with the switch to the use of nails coated with adhesive (C.C. Sinkers) and I don't think that was a coincidence. There was no need for other than common bright nails when we built with fir and since the coated nails generally cost a bit more per keg I don't see why they would have been bought if not needed with the white lumber. And while the designation SPF leaves room for some fir in the mix I can tell you there is not much if any in that pile at the lumber yard, fir is worth more and the mills will cull it out and sell it as fir for the premium price.

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Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/

Brian, thanks. It's learning things like that that makes this place cool.
However, it really doesn't do anything to change very much that I've said about pine and it's use in construction, nor the track record we've got on it. Even if pine's use became more prevalent in the 90's, we've still got 20 or more years of use in the construction trade. And i believe we actually have a lot longer history to draw from, no matter the politics of wood use in the past. There was still plenty of pine being used.
It's also easy for anyone to poke holes in anything, and come up with an exception here or there, but the exception doesn't disprove the rule. I still think we have a lot of history to draw from to show that a pine instrument isn't going to suddenly explode when we put strings on it and tune it up to pitch, LOL.
As long as good, well seasoned wood is chosen, I'm satisfied that pine can make a great guitar. For the long haul.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

No one said anything would explode. I noted that it doesn't hold a lot of the screws we use well and that it's prudent to harden the threads. Metal studs are used in construction too. Try mounting a bridge or strap button into a metal stud. House construction and guitar building are two entirely different things. Given the number of stripped screw holes I've repaired in things like alder, ash, maple and mahogany, I find it peculiar that you claim pine is okey dokey when experience shows that NONE of the woods we use stand up well over time in this application.

No, no one actually said so. But there is a lot of bias against pine, while as I pointed out earlier, they will use other woods that they have to literally flood with CA to make stable and take very little thought to that. But mention pine, and somehow it's a no no. I find that "peculiar". And if you read my posts, I mentioned that hardening the threads couldn't hurt, so no argument from me there.



Yes. But if pine can hold up to the stresses used in houses over decades and more, it's not as fragile as one might think. They might not relate, but i think the track record of it's use in the housing industry does indeed tell us something about it's abillity to hold fasteners. And that is one of the major things we're talking about when it comes to holding hardware on guitars. I think the two can relate a lot more than many are giving credit for. After all, a lot of the woods we use in luthiery are in use because someone saw their track record in another application and thought, "Gee, I bet that would make a good guitar".

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Well if NONE of the woods we use stand up over time in this application, what makes ANY of them "okey dokey"? One is just as good as the other. Period.
Please understand, berfore tempers flare up and any of us here say things we maybe shouldn't, I am not trying to be aggressive here, or trying to stir up trouble. But i am speaking my mind. As such, I'm done with this thread before it gets out of hand. I've said my piece,and I think my argument is pretty solid. You can think what you want. As will I. That's the beauty of building instruments, as well as being a part of this forum.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Building good instruments that last has to do with understanding the properties of the materials you're building with. For example, you can't build an instrument out of balsa wood without reinforcing certain areas because it will fall apart under string and strap button loads. It will not hold a screw worth a darn. "Good" is a subjective term. Maybe one is just as "good" as the other, but they behave differently from each other, and that's what we're talking about here. If you re-read the entire thread, I don't think you'll find much negativity towards pine other than noting:

It dents easily
Knots and cracks are potential concerns so be careful
it doesn't hold hardware as well as many other woods we use, so adjust accordingly.

Don't let your temper flair, Mike, but do encourage you to re-read the thread.

Firstly, thanks. And don't worry about my temper "flairing". I tend to try to avoid that on internet forums, and assure you I've not taken offense to anything in this thread. I do confess that I may have misinterpreted your post as getting kind of riled up yourself, hence the attempt to step off of this thread. I sincerely do not wish to offend anyone here. I have a lot of respect for all of you, and consider myself honored to be part of this community.
As to the way I took your post(which now seems to have been an overreaction on my part), it's difficult sometimes to know how someone is responding emotionally by the written word on the page, and I'm pretty sure others here could take offense with a lot of the way I communicate in written form without the benefit of a face to face. Rest assured I meant no offense, and take none.
As to my repeated posts on this thread, I sincerely love old pine as a guitar building material, and what I love I tend to defend strongly. Notice I said "old pine". I truely think there is a huge difference in pine somebody got from Home Depot or Lowes and reclaimed pine like the "victorian" pine I got from an antique piece of furniture that I used to build my P bass with. I think my love of that wood allowed me to go beyond simply what was said in this thread, and consider other posts at other times and other forums in my replies. My point was that in general there is a lot of negativity about the use of pine. I guess I was trying to lend a positive voice to that negative chorus.
I wouldn't give you a dime for the pine bodies that started this thread, simply because I don't know the woods' origin. And IMHO, with pine, that is everything. As for cracks and knots, IMHO they wouldn't be any more acceptable in pine than they would in any other wood. I'll pass, thank you.
As always, thanks for the discussion.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

FWIW, I hope you're right about pine. I have a Pine w/Paduak top on the workbench right now, and I have about 10 more select pine body blanks that I prepared out of a really primo piece of pine I found a couple of months ago! One piece, BTW

And, er, not many knots.....

I think you're gonna like pine. And I think you have the experience to build well with it. I would also love to see that Padauk top. Love me some Padauk, and would like to be able to find some for a top plate on an electric.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

I'll post as soon as it doesn't look embarrassing....

This will be a painted back, actually, and it's only because of a MINOR slip with a carving plane. In any other wood, it would have been no big deal, but it took a big gouge out of the pine that I just cant fix. It will still look nice, and I may still try to blend it in, but I think it's too much and it will get filler instead.

It looks AWESOME, though. The Paduak is just from my local Woodcraft. Nothing fancy.

I'll say that I love working with the pine, and it's not my first time, but man oh man it is NOT a forgiving wood. It's so easy to carve and work with, but it shows every bobble in grave detail.

Poplar is a much better choice for a first build. It sounds great, carves great, and it's hard enough that it doesn't complain too much if you slip a bit here and there. It's also rather pretty, actually, though most people choose to paint it for whatever reason.

Cool. I look forward to it.


Ouch! Yeah, I find I need to use more caution with pine. I'm so used to bearing down pretty hard when working ash and maple(I use hand tools a lot). It's a conscious effort with pine. But yeah, really easy to work.


Yeah, I like poplar, too. The weight is good, the working properties are good, and I'm with you, you can find some of it that looks pretty good, if you take the time to do so, though I usually do solid finish with it.
The one negative with poplar is that you can get parts of it that can get kind of punky sometimes. I find that's hard to predict, but find it most often with wood that has a lot of the greenish mineral streaking and yellow cast to the wood. IME, the darker grained stuff isn't as bad.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Mike
Thanks for your input on poplar... I realize there is fierce resistance to it seemingly - but Im willing to waste some time and effort on it if I can achieve results like my nighthawk.... I really dont buy brand name guitars or buy any guitars, as I have the tools to build them instead - but I just couldnt resist, it was so light and resonant, played so well, and hell I think they look cool as well.... not everyone does however...\

Theres a guy around my neck of the woods with Lombardy poplar... which Im totally unfamiliar with - but there are some photos on the site and there is some unreal looking grain patterns in it.... quilt and flame.... he describes it thus
"a light wood but harder than 'regular' poplar (more like maple)"

I have to do some research on it.... he also carries yellow poplar...
Mabye someone who knows more could tell me a bit about Lombardy poplar if they know anything about it...
Thanks again for all the input on the poplar...
Cheers
Charlie

You're welcome, Charlie. Not sure what Lombardy poplar is, but I'd have to get some of it if I could. This is just my opinion, but you can pretty much make a solidbody out of any type of wood. If I have access to a wood that has interesting grain figure that I'm also not familiar with, I'd have to do something with it just on GP. I did find this:

http://apps.kew.org/trees/?page_id=126

Seems like it's a sub species of Black Poplar.
As to your standard poplar, it's a staple of a lot of factory built guitars, and, at least around here, it's real popular with bassists, who like the weight and tone. I've said before that I like it quite well. I think it makes a great guitar.
I will be making a trip to the lumber yard soon. I'm contemplating some poplar myself, but it just depends what catches my eye/fancy when I start looking around. Last time I was there they had some Eucalyptus that was looking pretty sweet. Never used it, so the rule of general principle just might kick in there. You just never know.

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Mike

The only thing nescessary for evil to thrive is for good men to do nothing.

Lombardy Poplar was used by the Cremonese violin makers for cellos and violas. It is lighter than maple and thus makes a better cello or dark voiced instrument. Some basses are made of it and it is held in high regard. Having made both violin family instruments and electric guitars I am of the opinion that the wood that is best for viola is better for a guitar. Of course there is a lot of crossover.

lombardy Poplar is different than tuplip poplar which is not really a poplar. The wood with green streaks called poplar and sold in lumber yards here in the us is also good for guitar bodies http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/domestic_wood/poplar_lumber/poplar_wood.html

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Ken