Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Nov 27, 2024 4:38 pm


All times are UTC - 5 hours





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Finishing
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:27 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:00 am
Posts: 35
Location: Calgary AB
First name: Nick
Last Name: Burman
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ask ten people how they finish their guitars and you get twelve answers. The other issue is that depending on where you live, some materials may or may not be available. In Canada it seems that grain fillers are hard to come by in smaller quantities, as is copper magnet wire for pickups. So I've been looking at what IS available.
Has anyone tried Watco Clear Lacquer? http://www.rustoleum.com/CBGProduct.asp?pid=163 The label claims that it can fill pores and needs no sanding between coats. How realistic is this if you're after a glassy finish?

_________________
Music. And Stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finishing
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:40 pm 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:50 am
Posts: 53
Location: Oregon/Hawaii
First name: Hal
I don't know about that particular brand but I know about automotive-type Lacquer. When it says you don't need to sand to re-coat that is correct. Many types of paints you need to let totally dry/cure and sand before you put on the next coat. Don't confuse that to mean you don't need to sand to get a smooth finish. The normal procedure with lacquer is to spray, block sand, hand sand, clean and then spray. Repeat that as many times as is necessary to achieve the quality of finish you want. When you are at that level and you think everything is perfect, spray 1 more wet coat and let dry for at least 24 hours. Then sand with 1200 grit wet and rub it out with compound. My experience is doing this on cars but I'm sure the same applies to a guitar? The finish you can achieve with lacquer is unmatched for brilliance, but be aware that the longevity may be less then a poly-type finish which can be bullet-proof and stable forever (+-).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Finishing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:45 am 
Offline
Walnut
Walnut
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:00 am
Posts: 35
Location: Calgary AB
First name: Nick
Last Name: Burman
Country: Canada
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Thanks BRC. That has to be the most concise and straight forward advice I have ever read on finishing! There are so ma y products out there it can be a little confusing, especially when some dont even say what they are. What IS Varathane, by the way? Is it a polyurethane?
Is it safe to say that the method you outlined can be used on other paints, like enamels?

_________________
Music. And Stuff.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finishing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:55 am 
Offline
Mahogany
Mahogany
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:50 am
Posts: 53
Location: Oregon/Hawaii
First name: Hal
Material science when it comes to finishes is endless and can be exhausting. Lacquer itself goes something like this: Originally there was Shellac (shell-lacquer), which was the crushed shell of a beetle mixed in a solution of alcohol. Then they synthesized it and came out with Nitrocellulose Lacquer (what they painted many 20s - 50s cars with). Even Acrylic Lacquer has been re-formulated using a much better modern Acrylic these days, and except for how it works has almost no resemblance to the early acrylic chemical-wise. The issue with Lacquer has always been it's porosity, meaning it has microscopic holes all the way through all layers. It "drys" not "cures" leaving microscopic holes where the solvent has evaporated from. Also it is very hard, durometer kind of hard, not toughness hard. (Think of glass as compared to rubber). This is the reason you can get such a fine finish as when you sand and rub you take the tops of the irregularities down to a very flat surface resulting in a high gloss. Moisture also transfers through it very easily. This is why when exposed to weather and temp extremes it doesn't hold up so well. Ideally that is going to be a much lesser issue on a wood instrument that isn't parked in the driveway in the snow, and then summer heat..... :)

"Enamel" has so many variations that it would be impossible to explain them all. There are literally hundreds of paint formulations that say "Enamel" on the can, and have no resemblance to each other. Just a couple to make the point are water-based, oil based, (think house paint), Synthetic and Acrylic, none of which are compatible formulations with the others. Oh, and catalyzed and non-catalyzed. With Enamel you get what you pay for. The stuff that comes in aerosol cans from Wall-mart is the cheapest crap of the bunch, never use this stuff on anything you care about. The best (in my opinion) is modern catalyzed Acrylic Enamel made for spraying cars and can be purchased at a real automotive paint store. It contains a catalyzing plastomer and when mixed with the hardener before spraying will set up as epoxy does. Very good stuff and tough as nails.

Modern catalyzed Acrylic Enamel can be finish sanded and buffed after a reasonable amount of time, I like a month. Be aware though that Enamel goes down in much thicker coats then say Lacquer, and if it is not a solid color, or clear, then you will ruin it by sanding and rubbing it because any metallic is "floated" in the layer when sprayed. You will just cut into the tops of the metallic by sanding and it will look really bad. The typical way to handle a solid color custom job in enamel (on a car) is to spray all the color coats, let it completely cure, cut and buff it, clean it properly, THEN spray a couple of wet coats of clear for the final gloss and leave it alone. All coats are mixed catalyzed. Enamels "cure" not "dry", meaning they set with heat, in our case that is the heat in the room and are way less porous.

BTW, Varathane used to mean Urethane Varnish, which contained no varnish, just colored urethane. I suspect that there is no urethane in Varathane today, only Polyurethane. Varathane is great stuff for its proper use. Don't confuse Urethane with Polyurethane though, not the same. Both Urethane and Polyurethane "cure" not "dry".

I realize that this can be really confusing. Thank the marketing departments...... :)


Last edited by BRC on Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Finishing
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:21 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:06 pm
Posts: 2739
Location: Magnolia DE
First name: Brian
Last Name: Howard
City: Magnolia
State: Delaware
Zip/Postal Code: 19962
Country: United States
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
I've used Watco for years off and on for lots of small projects, but not a guitar. Yet I see no reason it wouldn't work well for one. It's a brush grade lacquer and it works very nice. I use it on small pieces that would be to much trouble to set up, spray , and then clean all the equipment. There is a bit of a technique to laying it down, but it self levels nicely. Don't know if it's acrylic or nitro based. It can be sprayed if you ad a little reducer, the faster the evap rate the better.

_________________
Brian

You never know what you are capable of until you actually try.

https://www.howardguitarsdelaware.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 5 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com