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I was excited to use this stuff at first, but I will not use it anymore. The main culprit is the fact that it is just not durable enough. Everything else is great, but when I can take my fingernail and apply medium pressure to the finish, even after a year of curing, you are left with a nice scratch. I've even used a bunch of IR heat lamps to no avail. This stuff is not good for applying to instruments that are actually used and not displayed as wall candy. Sorry!

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Barron Wesley Guitars

agreed. There. I said it out loud. In my experience, JUNK.

So I'm going to try my hand at some wipe on poly. I know, professionals don't use it. But hey - I've only built 8 guitars or so. Not pro yet.
Anyway, I'm thinking of using Z-Poxy over the stained mahogany and then start applying the poly. Does anyone see any problem with this? Adhesion maybe??

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Barron Wesley Guitars

I had one come back from a guy with apparently acidic sweat. It was completely trashed. I figured he had it at camping and sprayed off all over his hands. His was just a worse case than what I experienced on my own. It will ultimately need a refinish. If you're serious about guitars, ktm-9 is out of the league.

Regarding being on your 8th or 9th guitar. If your woodworking skills, design, and budget allow, go for a professional finish. Consider Joe White. Excellent craftsman, and you can accentuate your skills, rather than have them shamed by a poor finish. Choose carefully.

Well, I've used ktm9 on about 4 instruments, and I like it, sort of.
I'm not going to spray nitro anymore, because I don't want to kill myself with it.
I haven't sold any instruments with ktm, but wouldn't hesitate to.
I want to go to a poly or varnish finish in the future.
If you "farm out" the finish, it's going to cost a lot.
How much can you get for your instruments?
If you're established, and have a high end clientele, sure!
Dig?
If you are building gits, then you have to do it all, unless you can afford to have someone else finish it for ya.
My dos centavos.
BTW, I hate the whole finishing process!!!!!!
But, it's part of the deal.

I have used KTM-9 with ok results, but noted what you did. Since I was also able to scratch the finish on the neck of my Mexican Strat I figured it was at least as hard as a Nitro finish. My latest ones I've used EM-6000, Much, Much harder and a lot easier to spray. I also think it is a little clearer. I just did your fingernail test to one that was sprayed May 09 and didn't phase it at all. In fact, after gigging with one since February, the only thing I have scratched it with was the clip on my pocket knife that I forgot was hanging out of my pocket, and even that scratch could be buffed out if I decided to take the time to do it. When I first started spraying it I had some issued as it is not completely water resistant for quite some time, but once it is cured out it is really hard and slick too.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

Hmm? So is it harder than Nitro? What if you took the edge of a pic and really tried to give it a good scratch?

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Barron Wesley Guitars

Light pick bent before anything happened to the finish. With a heavy pick, only the point could put some superficial scratches on it, nothing dented like with KTM-9. Just for comparison, I pulled out an old guitar that I had finished with KTM-9 (I have since parted it out) and I could "crease" the finish with my fingernail. Nothing like that with the EM-6000. Harder than the wood underneath.

I mentioned that when I first sprayed it I had some issues with the cure. Target Coatings says is cures in 2 weeks, which if you are just sanding and buffing is true. It is not water resistant for a few months though as I had some condensation from a water bottle drop onto a guitar with out me realizing it and sat there for about 3-5 minutes, ruined that spot on the finish. Of course it was easy to fix with no witness lines but still bothered me. Long story short, Jeff at target coatings assured me it would eventually cure out and I sprayed a few test pieces to check periodically. I had satisfactory results in about 2 months after spraying and I quit testing. It has been over a year and I decided to test them again just cause of this thread. I let water bead up and set on the finish for over an hour with no effect to the finish, so if I ever need to re-finish my coffee table I think I might use this

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

Thanks a lot for doing the tests. That EM-6000 sounded pretty tempting until you said it takes so long to cure. It may still be worth it though. I'm thinking of trying to brush the nitro I have had for a while and add some retarder to it.

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Barron Wesley Guitars

It can be buffed in 2 weeks drying at ambient temperatures. It won't shrink after that, you just have to be careful with it (i.e. don't use it as a coaster) until it fully becomes water/chemically resistant. I do not have a lot of experience with finishes, but that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

I am a big fan of EM6000 as well, having used it since Target introduced it a couple of years ago. I normally build acoustics and often do not install pickguards. I am amazed at how durable the finish is. It also has a terrific feel on the neck.

Ken

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http://www.casperguitar.com

I'm going to use EM 6000 on my next one along with their pore filler and sealer. I have all the stuff to make a decent little oven so I'll be letting it sit a day or two at ambient temperature and then bake it at around 120F for a few weeks to see if that takes care of the water sensitivity.

I expect after three or four days at 120F I'd be able to buff out the finish. I'll run some little test strips and take them out at regular intervals to see how the baking works over time.

I'll post the results.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Well if the consensus is that KTM-9 can't hold a candle to EM6000, then maybe I will order some. Anyone else care to chime in on the durability of the EM6000? For me I just need to be assured that running my fingernail across the finish with some medium to heavy pressure won't leave a mark that needs to be buffed out at the least, never mind sanded also. Simple test, but it shows me that it is store worthy or not.

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Barron Wesley Guitars

Errm.....Pretty sure that mex strats are finished in polyurethane. The USA made "Highway 1" series released in 2002 and again 2006 reintroduced nitro for a bit of nostalgia but that was a one off, as far as I am aware Fender had adopted poly as a standard finish long ago. Poly is not very 'hard', but it is very tough and resists abrasion well, after all its plastic and not really comparable to nitro at all.

Cheers

Kim

The body is definately not Nitro (pastic/epoxy crap), but the neck has a very soft clear finish on it that I was told was nitro, but I honestly can't say for sure.

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John Thiessen
http://www.iszacguitars.com

If it remains so soft that it can be creased with the nail, i am wondering if it wasn't applied in too thick coats.
For a while now I have switched to violin oil varnish (yeah I know it is a very different animal but who know) and thick coats take forever to dry. I have some samples that can be nail-creased even after weeks of heavy UV exposure, while a good thin coat is nail proof (within reason) in just a few days...So I rather brush 7 coats as thinly as possible instead of just 3-4 heavier coats, and that is what the varnish maker recommended as well.

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Build log

I just picked up some Waterlox for my next build.

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Barron Wesley Guitars

If the guitar was made in Mexico the finish would just be thinner poly than that used on the body, this is why it is soft, but it does have great abrasion resistance. Poly is a very 'quick' finishing solution which is adopted to save production costs and increase profits....much like the idea of moving production to Mexico I suppose. Nitro on the other hand is much harder than poly but takes far much too long to cure and polish out for a "time is money" company whose primary focus is output.

This is why 'limited release' and USA made customs cost so much more, Fender know full well that there is a market for 'old school', but they aint gonna be giv'n it away any time soon and Mexico is 'all' about the numbers coming out the other end, there is no room for nostalgia.

Cheers

Kim