Official Luthiers Forum!

I have no experience whatsoever with computer drawing programs. I know many of you use RhinoCAD here. I also know that most of the courses available at the community and technical colleges are in AutoCAD. So the question then becomes which software to use and where to get sufficient training to be able to draw the kinds of things necessary for a luthier in a CAD program.

Don't even bother with AutoCAD. It's in all the colleges because it's 'standard', not because it's good. And it became 'standard' as a result of some sketchy business practices years ago (similar to what Microsoft did to OS/2, actually). In short, it's overpriced relative to what it can do and I think it's only holding its place in the market from inertia.

Taking a course is a good thing, if one's available and you have money to burn. Of course, you can buy a full version of Rhino for the cost of a course, and I think you'll get more out of the tutorials built into Rhino and the online community than any course could provide.

If you're looking for software that can do lutherie or industrial design work, then there are only a few options worth considering IMO:

Moi3D at around $200.

-This is the cheapest CAD software I'd consider 'full featured'. It's file-format compatible with Rhino, and has the vast majority of the same functionality. Your skills will transfer to Rhino seamlessly from Moi if you ever feel that you need the extra tools Rhino has. If your time is worth anything to you, then I feel you'd be wasting it by putting hours into becoming proficient in a lesser package to save a few bucks. Moi is a deal compared to free packages, even.

Rhino is ~$1000, but if you have any way to do it then you can get an educational license for $200! Educational licenses of Rhino are still 'yours' to use commercially once you no longer qualify, and you only need to pay the cost of commercial upgrades from then on. I started with an educational license, for example, and paid for a commercial upgrade to 4.0. My total investment is still under $500 as the upgrade was $300 when I bought it. There is no CAD software more capable of generating 2D or 3D geometry than Rhino, period. It has more tools, with more options, for 2D and 3D curve and surface generation than anything else. The help file in Rhino 4.0 is the most useful online help I've ever seen in a piece of software, and it

Solidworks is in the $5K range, and if you need parametrics and design trees (if you don't know what they are, you don't need them!) then it's the cream of the crop. Rhino is more powerful for geometry creation, still, so I recommend that anyone who uses Solidworks still needs to have Rhino for tough jobs.


There are huge online communities for Rhino and Solidworks, and Moi is so similar to Rhino that you'll be able to follow along with Rhino tutorials (command names are identical). You'll be able to get help on this forum for both Rhino and Solidworks, and probably Moi if it's a question not completely unique to that package. I'd recommend getting the evaluation versions of Rhino and Moi, which I believe are full-featured with saving disabled, and work your way through the tutorials. I also recommend using the drop-down menus in Rhino, rather than the icons, to select commands when you're learning so that you see what they're called when you're using them (you learn the names of the commands much faster that way).

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

So the question then is, where does one take a course to get an educational license -- a means by which to get some hands on training as well as get a seat?

"Solidworks is in the $5K range, and if you need parametrics and design trees (if you don't know what they are, you don't need them!) then it's the cream of the crop. Rhino is more powerful for geometry creation, still, so I recommend that anyone who uses Solidworks still needs to have Rhino for tough jobs."

Hi Bob,

I think you mispelled the above comment.....

"Everyone that uses RHINO, still needs to go get SOLIDWORKS, if you want the model the look right..."

Just clearing it up...

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Cyborg, are you saying that RhinoCAD isn't enough? That in order to complete a rendering you need Solidworks? Or is it that Solidworks provides surfaces for visualization rather than machining?

Please understand that some of what has been said in the previous postings, I do not understand, so treat me with kid gloves.

-- db

David,
You don't need solidworks, you do however need a package that with create the toolpaths, which will not typically be part of your CAD package. Solidworks will not create toolpaths, not that anyone said it would.
I whole heartedly agree with Bob about avoiding autocad. You want surfacing feature not drawing features. As Bob said Rhino is the biggest bang for the buck when it comes to surfacing.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Stop confusing the newbie!

Solidworks educational versions time out after 12 months. You can get yourself a copy of Rhino, a seat of MadCAM, and build a pretty decent CNC router for the price of a seat of SW. The quality of a router that can be built for $2400 varies from terrible to great, dependent on the skills of the builder, but that's another story.

Solidworks is delightful for what it is, but it's miles behind Rhino in both curve and surface creation tools. My workflow for industrial design is Solidworks with imported surfaces or curves from Rhino when it chokes on something, but if I were stuck with only one piece of software to do lutherie or organic design it would have to be Rhino. OTOH, it can be outright painful to develop tooling or any sort of multi-part mechanism in Rhino after you've used Solidworks

So far as toolpaths go, the software should be independent of your CAD software anyhow. The only software I can recommend for toolpathing that is CAD-software specific is MadCAM which runs in Rhino. The 'plugin' versions of anything else (RhinoCAM as opposed to Visual Mill, for example) are all drawbacks compared to the standalone versions of the same software.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

..."Solidworks is delightful for what it is, but it's miles behind Rhino in both curve and surface creation tools..."

Well, I beg to differ...Have you looked at 2010, and it's surface capabilities?

Anyway, I agree with you 100% on the price, and the best way to get started, however, I will also make this point:

-When starting out, make sure you understand the pro and cons of many different modeling approaches. In other words, choosing a program to start modeling, is also choosing a path as to the "way" things are done in the modeling world.

Take a look around and see how many people are struggling to move from AutoCAD to another package, because that is the approach of modeling they have learned. My point is that say one starts out with Rhino, and then they want to move to a parametric modeler like Solidworks, not the easiest in the world right? It can be done, but the two have two distinct and different approaches to modeling.

So be it that many packages allow you to get trial versions, I would encourage someone to spent the time and learn them a little at first, and see which one they feel comfortable with before laying out the bucks......

Great point however...

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-CyborgCNC
http://www.cncguitar.com
https://www.facebook.com/CncGuitar

Gentlemen, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Please explain the differences between AutoCAD, RhinoCAD, MasterCam and Solidworks. What are they used for? What do they create, and then finally what makes Rhino the most cost-effective solution for luthiery. I really know nothing about CAD at all, so I'll need a little more exposition and a little less technical terminology because I don't know what you're talking about.

Yes, I have spent over a hundred hours in SW 2010, and a few hundred in SW 2009 before that. Differ all you like, there isn't a single surfacing tool it has that Rhino doesn't. Conversely, there's a slew of surfacing functionality in Rhino which Solidworks lacks. I know you've got to tow the line, but I'll call you out on it.

David:

AutoCAD is a 2D and, for more cash, 3D CAD system that isn't really awesome at either but has deep market penetration in certain industries.

Rhino and MOI3D are 2D/3D CAD software as well, but dollar for dollar they're at least twice as good as AutoCAD. They're freeform modelers, which means that there's no 'history' when you model something. If you design a part, say a fretboard, and then decide you need to change something you did earlier (like the scale length), then you will have to revert all the changes you've made since you made that choice. IE: if you 'turn back time' then it forgets everything you've done since.

Solidworks is a parametric CAD software, which has a different design paradigm from Rhino. In Solidworks, the software keeps a history of every design feature you put in a part, and you can change things you did in previous steps without losing what you've done since. If you 'turn back time' to make a change to a step you did earlier, it remembers what you did since and re-does those operations based on the change you made to a previous step.

MasterCAM is CAM software. It has a (horrible, horrible) integrated 2D/3D CAD package but we'll ignore that. The main functionality of MasterCAM and other CAM software is that it can take a CAD model and generate the instructions for a CNC machine to cut it out. CAM software figures out how to make CAD files. Visual Mill is also CAM software, but at 80% of the functionality and less than half the price of MasterCAM.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Thanks, Bob. Now I understand. So I gather in Rhino, you need to build things in pieces, save them and merge them so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time you make a change?

Kind of a bummer that it doesn't have a history.....

AutoCAD has come with 3D mesh and solid modeling and photo realistic rendering features as standard feature since the 1980’s (R13 version). A lot of peopel had a hard time learning to use it and therefore claimed it was not capable. but I have been doing complex 3D solid and mesh modeling, photo realistic rendering, anamation and CAM programing in AutoCAD for over 20 years now. So it is not a casse of not capable but rather a case of not being the the most intuitive input convention for newer users. AutoCADLt did not offer much in 3D at all but that is why they called it AutoCADLt (Lt= light). Rhino, SolidWorks ProE and Autocad all will do most of what any modeler wants to do I will say AutoCAD is really focused on putting out 2D shop prints or drawings but I use it everyday in my job to create 3D mesh and 3D solid drawings and there are many inexpensive add-ons and lisp routines available for could editing and cam programming. AutoDesk Inventor is designed more for the Cad-Cam user market like tool and die makers where CNC interconnectivity and on the fly parametric design changes is the main focus. AutoCAD is not automatically a parametric based design program but you can create blocks that will scale parametrically with any cad system. I use ProE AutoCAD and SolidWorks daily. Anything I can do with one I can pretty much do with the other (FEA is and exception to that).

All that said; the user interface or data input routines are vastly different from one package to the next but they all use the same principles of geometry to create entities. Some make it easier to edit the geometry but they all use the same principers of geometry to get there. Truly I am not knocking SolidWorks, Rhino or anyother package out there but I constantly hear people say AutoCAD wont do this or won’t do that and in most cases that is not true. It is true that the others may be more intuitive to new useres with their data input convention. It is also true that you may have to have some LISP programming experience to make AutoCAD simpler to use when doing some functions. This is because AutoDesk chose to keep a lot of older input conventions that their historic user base are famillure with.

Having worked with AutoCAD, Studio Max, Inventor, Unigraphics (now SolidWorks), Catia, Medussa and ProE over my 30 + year Cad carrier, they all are computer automated design programs. They each take different philosophy on how the user interface works but they all create geometry based on user inputted data. When talking about the full blown out of the box professional packages, input convention for one may be more intuitive for an experienced user and less likely not be as intuitive for a new user or vise versa. Each has their own niche where they shine and each has features that are less efficient at getting the job done. So for personal or small business use I recommend playing on several, defining what works best for you, which one has a data input convention the makes since intuitively to you and make your choice that way.

It has unlimited undo, so it does have a history, but it's like Photoshop or most other professional software in that the undo steps everything backwards. The tradeoff is that functions are harder to implement in parametric frameworks, so they traded parametrics for a more complex toolset. If you keep the curves that you generate your surfaces from, then you can make changes and regenerate the surfaces quite quickly.

Parametrics are a godsend if you're dealing with families of parts, assemblies, or lots of related features. Changing every counterbore on a big project to a different size takes 20 seconds in a parametric modeler, or having the engine block stretch itself out to match the new cylinder bore spacing, or to stick two more holes in a bolt circle, etc. On the other hand, you're still dealing with that smaller surfacing toolset so getting that one complex surface you need to finish a part can be pure torture.

I can model a fixture, a robotic arm, or a cellphone much faster in Solidworks. A cello neck or a complex carved electric guitar body is much faster in Rhino. Solidworks is much faster when the features of a part are interrelated or orthogonal and Rhino is faster once the complexity of the surfaces involved passes a certain point, generally once the curves to define a surface aren't planar anymore. Essentially, Rhino is weaker at working with related features while Solidworks is weaker at working with complex curves. Put another way: if you can make a machinists drawing of it, then it's faster to make it in Solidworks. If you can't make it accurately without access to the CAD model, then it's faster to do it in Rhino.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

I'll just paraphrase what has already been said:

Rhino is 1/5th the cost of Solidworks and will pretty much draw anything that Solidworks will. I've used both daily for years now. For a small builder, I think it's the most cost-effective solution out there.

I always recommend that folks who are interested in CNC purchase their CAD software first. If you find that you enjoy the CAD work, and are able to draw things that you intend to cut, then you'll be in a good spot to go ahead and put the money into CNC. There's really no reason to buy CAD, CAM, and a CNC all at once unless you are already familiar with all of this.

I hope this helps, good luck...!
Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Gentlemen, thank you for all of your input. I guess Rhino is the way to go.

The only remaining question is training. Suggestions?

-- db

David, let me step in here and offer my advice with a full money-back guarantee.
Training--you can download a demo version of Rhino for free and learn enough to ask questions just playing with it.
I've used Autocad for about 25 years now but very little in 3D model.
We use ProE for a design software and it's a godsend for visualizing 3d structures as with any 3d software.
I've played with Rhino enough to know that the guys above know what they're talking about regarding it's surfacing capability.
I'll try to upload a jpg of a typical machine I design in Proe. It's a 50 ft. width disk requiring a tractor of 500+HP.
It all folds up to go down the road at about 18' width and weight 30,000+ lbs. with thousands of parts in the assembly.
This barely touches the capabilities of ProE.
Nelson

Assembly work is the one area where SW really has a huge advantage over Rhino. Basically, it lets you model all the parts separately from the assembly, and then allows you to combine those parts in an assembly file. Stuff like what Nelson is showing would be a real pain in Rhino or AutoCAD...

The main use of stuff like this as it relates to guitar building is to make sure that all the parts fit correctly and look good on the guitar model. Stuff like setting neck angle is typically done by hand, even on electrics. Most if not all of the CNC work is based on individual part models, for which you really don't need the assembly capabilities of these higher end packages.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

Absolutly not really. I create 2D and 3d assemblies every day many with 5000 component parts. Just like with any cad system the component part model has a point of insertion. On you your assembly model you pick or define what component file you want to insert and where you want it inserted at and bingo its there. if you have muli copies of that comonent on the assembly you can copy or insert multiple copies. command name and input convention may be different but functionality is the same. it is not a pain at alll it is a three button click. pick the fill, pick where it goes and defines its real world rotation. takes maybe 1-1*/2 seconds.

I think it's pretty hard for AutoCAD to compete with the 3d parametric packages in a design environment. It's much easier to roll a part change through one of these assemblies than it is to do so in AutoCAD. AutoCAD is great at some things...but there's a reason that the 3d parametric packages are getting all the attention that they are..!

The one place where I have seen AutoCAD displace Solidworks is on work with extremely large assemblies (thousands of parts). Solidworks just bombs out on some of these assemblies.

Trev

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http://www.PeakeGuitars.com

It's not the being able to load a bunch of objects that makes assemblies in SW/ProE/Inventor useful, it's that they have real time inverse kinematics engines. When you move one part of an assembly the other parts maintain their kinematic (real world) relations to it. You can model an engine in Solidworks and have the pistons and valves move properly when you turn the shaft, or drag around the end effector on a robotic arm and have the rest of the arm line itself up correctly, and in real time as opposed to a computed/non-real time simulation). To my knowledge, AutoCAD has never had that capability. Rhino, AutoCAD, and other modelers have third party kinematics plugins, but they're generally pretty sloppy and none of them I've seen work in real time.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Another productive feature of the parametric type design software is that shop drawings can be created automatically (almost) from the solid model.
(Dave, I know we're giving a bunch of info here that you really don't care about at this point, but it is a good discussion)
When I think back to the days of paper, pencil and drafting table.........how did we ever have the patience!!!
Anyways, make a change in the solid model and it's automatically reflected in the shop drawings. (part or assembly)
Nelson

As someone who it just starting out learning software for CNC I can recommend the Rhino / Visual Mill combination. I downloaded and tested both programs before I bought them (it sure is nice to actually own Rhino and not to have to worry about using up one of the 25 saves the demo gives you!). I have found the learning curve to be fairly steep having started with no knowledge of CAD or CAM but not insurmountable. I have spend many an evening working through the tutorials that came with the programs and I've finally reached the place in my learning where the light has come on and it's all starting to make sense.

One of my biggest challenges was conceptually moving from 2 / 2.5 D to 3D in Rhino. I think I've got the basics sorted out though; the pyramid bridge that I machined last weekend came out pretty well.

One piece of advice I have for those starting out is to keep your designs simple to start out with. Don't try to model an F5 mandolin top or a guitar neck as your first project Something relatively straightforward like a radiused fretboard sanding block has a better chance of success to start out with.

Scott

From the perspective of a newbie modeling software should be evaluated from the standpoint of how intuitive it is to use and learn with. Having spent thousands of hours with various modeling packages I vote for Solidworks as the most intuitive of the major modeling packages.

From the standpoint of cost, Rhino can be had for a few hundred dollars. I expect that getting this student discount for Rhino, and receiving training in Rhino in initial stages of learning would be the best approach to take as a wannacadman.

Once having received good initial training the intuitive aspects of Solidworks probably become moot.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

Another vote for Rhino/MadCam here, I used RhinoCam for a year or so but find MadCam to be so much more intuitive - don't be fooled by its simplistic toolbars, there's a lot of power in there plus the support is outstanding.

Lynda.com is a fantastic learning resource for all sorts of software and they recently released essential training for Rhino. The course is just under six hours broken down into short video chapters well presented in a logical sequence. It's a subscription site but you can sign up for just a month ($25) and view the course as often as you like (and any of the other courses on the site), plus if you use something like Real Player Downloader you can download the videos and keep them for as long as you like.

http://www.lynda.com/home/DisplayCourse.aspx?lpk2=59223

There's some support videos on the MadCam site with I believe more on the way, if you have any issues getting started or specific machining strategies email Joakim with your problem/questions and he'll get back to you with a very detailed answer pretty quickly.

I also use the tSplines plug in for Rhino which lets you model some ridiculously organic shapes - perfect for carve tops.

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www.morganguitarworks.com
www.morgancustomguitars.com

Neil and Bob,

Thanks for the recommendations for Madcam. I am a long time user, as well as one of the trouble shooter/ testers for Joakim. I also do sales for him, but that is very limited. I do however do quite a bit of support if needed.

To reinterate what Neil said, Madcam is a lot of program and much of it like hidden jems! While I do support.....I am still learning.

Here is a guitar that I modeled in Rhino and was machined totally using Madcam.



I promise you I am no where nearly as good as these other guys on Rhino, and possibly not even on madcam, but I am here if you need help. Like Neil, I too have benefited from much personal help from folks and intend to pass it on.

Mike