Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi to readers,

I'm new at this and my first attempt has worked out well BUT!!!

The guitar I've built is a 3/4 scale length Musicman / OLP MM4 copy for my 8 year old son. 2H instead of HSS. I was trying to incorporate as many skill development aspects as possible into this project and this has caused the problem. In hind-sight I should have kept it as simple as possible and probably left the whole Tremolo Bridge thing out of the equation as it is only a beginners guitar after all.

The problem is that I designed the position of the Floyd Rose (Licensed) according to the specification that came with it.

Unaware that there could possibly be any issues I produced a quality body out of solid Queensland Maple (Flindersia Brayleyana), the neck from Tasmanian Oak (Grevillea Robusta) and a Merbau (Intsia Bijuga) fingerboard. Some nice hardware from Stew-Mac and a set of V1 V2 Humbuckers out of an Ibanez SC420 that I rewired due to the previous owner cutting the wires short. I am so happy with the quality of my work after hours making full size hand drawn plans, CAD drawn accurate layouts of body cavities and router templates, making templates and test pieces out of cheap timber etc etc. tooling up and all else that goes with the first guitar.

Here's the crunch!!. It all fitted together beautifully BUT when I put the strings on and began setting up the intonation I immediately find that the bridge saddles need to be right back to the limit of their adjustment and my 12th fret tuning is still sharp. To flatten a string I need to lengthen it, right? Can't do it.

I then thought, "OK. What if I remove the neck and move it out a bit?" I did this and moved it out 3mm. I can fix some packing into the body in the gap this created and make a new scratchplate to cover it so no real problem. Even after doing this I still cant get the bottom E, A and D strings fully in tone. They are still slightly sharp although much better than they were and for an 8 year old, quite playable but I can hear it and I'm disappointed. I was telling to the guy at the local music store and he said "Oh lots of guitars are like that."

I can possibly move the neck out a bit further (maybe another 2 or 3mm) but my concern is that this much adjustment is over 1% will be changing the actual fret spacing out of my scale length as well as making the neck pocket unsupportive on the bottom side. I would have to fill and redrill the screw holes in the neck to ensure the screws don't strip out.

What would you do??

I think a new neck with scale length and fret spacings recalculated from the saddle mid-points is going to be required eventually. I cant believe that there is so much adjustment on the bridge and I have none of it available.

By the way I've strung it with Super Slinky light guage strings and 2 Tremolo springs to try and alleviate the issue a bit as well.

The lesson learned is to measure everything yourself.

Sorry to hear of your troubles, some pictures of the guitar would help to find a solution. Personaly I would put the neck back and plug and remount the floyd were it should be, I think sound is more important. You could always vener the top to cover any holes you have plugged. Let us see some pics, maybee theres an easier solution if we can see what you have.
Dont feel bad I did somthing similar with a wrap around bridge at 4.00 in the morning, somtimes I just dont know when to take a break .
Good luck,
Terry...

I'll have to resize the photos.

I had considered this as an option however I recessed the bridge outline into the body to allow for greater movement in raising the pitch. I would have to pull and plug the bridge post holes and as well extend the recess route further back. I'd have to fill the front section of the recess which would eventually be covered by the scratchplate. I'm not sure if the through route for the tremolo block would have to be enlarged as well.

The photos dont show a lot but I'll resize then post some anyway.

Hi Greg. Welcome to the forum.

So what is your actual scale length? If you don't know, just measure from the nut to the 12th fret, and double that measurement. Your strings, when properly intonated, are all going to be just a little bit longer than this. The high E will be closest to the actual scale length, but will still be 1/32"-1/16" longer. With this information, you should be able to tell right where your bridge and/or neck should be. Then you can at least tell if you are able to get to that position or not. If not, I'd make a new neck. Hope I'm telling you things you already know.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

The planned scale length was to be 22.75 inches or 577.85mm (ie 3/4 size). I used the Fret scale calculator from the Stewart-MacDonald site and this also provides information on the positioning of the bridge mounting holes for all sorts of different style bridges. The dimensions given for Floyd Rose II, Schaller Floyd Rose and Floyd Rose Original only vary by 1.4mm and are given as 565.1mm and 566.5mm. I actually have mine at 568.5mm now that I've moved the neck out but it is too close to the nut. It is interesting to note that these distances are the shortest out of all those given using this calculator. Most of the others are at least 1/2" to 3/4" further back.

I'm now wondering if there is that much difference in the shape of the Original Floyd Rose and the one I have which is made under license. If there is then the solution may be to buy an Original Floyd and simply place it in the guitar as is. If that doesn't work then it is obvious that the dimensions calculated by the web site are incorrect.

If you would by an original floyd you would just be throwing away your money. Most copy don't vary much to the original especailly if its a licensed copy. You mentioned stew macs site. Is this by any chance one you bought through them? is it a schaller? If so schaller actually manufacturers the original floyds. So they a pretty much direct copies. You will most likely have to recheck the measurements and plug the post holes and redrill if incorrect.

Strange.

Unless I'm looking at it wrong - from your pictures it looks like there's at least a good 10mm from the center of your mounting studs back to the saddles, which should put you right in the ballpark of where you need to be. The only thing that matters is that your saddles, in their forward most positions, are at the scale length, and can move back from there.

You are measuring from the front of the nut, where it touches the fingerboard, right? And you have double checked that your scale length is what it ought to be? Again, seems like you should be there.

By the way, the guitar looks great!

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

I've just redone the calculation using the Stewmac calculator and I get the exact same printout and suggested hole centre position for pivot post mounting. My posts are correctly located according to these provided specs but it is too close to the nut and I have no adjustment as described.

To answer the question, No, I bought the bridge from Guitar Super parts or something similar. They operate out of Canada but the parts are shipped direct from Hong Kong. I had to buy the locking nut from Stewmac though as the other mob kept sending me the wrong size. I needed a number 3 and they kept sending number 2 and I'd already made the neck to plan. From memory it's is 1/16" narrower but that's not my problem. Unless there is some difference between the Original and the licensed Floyd Rose the information given using the Stewmac calculator is incorrect. I'll email them to make enquiry if this is the case.

So does anybody have directions to some dimensioned drawings of the Original Floyd Rose?

I'll check the website to see what I can find.

SniderMike,
Thanks for your interest. Unfortunately I've checked everything and if I pull the saddles forward they are short of the required scale length. They are spot on scale length pulled right back as shown and as you know this is too short for all bar 1 or 2 strings (1E and 2B).
I've emailed Floyd Rose support to see what they say about positioning.

Looks like a new neck to me.

Bummer. Sorry, Greg.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

If you look at the third photo you can see that the saddles are all pulled right back and the front grub screw hole is visible under all 6 strings. Looking at the dimensions provided by the calculator you can tell that the centre of the mounting post holes is closer to the nut than it should be if you mainly need to adjust the string length outwards making it longer than scale length for the thicker strings. Scale length of 577.85mm and the mounting hole centres at 566.520mm (+ or - 0.5mm).

At best the posts should be in line with the scale length line or maybe just in front but 11 or 12mm is way too much. This setup could never have worked.

Don't trust the internet. Measure you hardware yourself.

I've found something in my workmanship that is a bit out and while fixing it wont completely solve the problem it is most certainly adding to it's severity.

I have been going over the tuning of the guitar in minute detail and discovered by setting my tuners to chromatic and sounding each string on each fret that my bottom 6E string was going sharp even on the first fret. So E open was in tune but F fret 1 was sharp. Same occured on each string but to a lesser degree on each successive string. Out with the vernier calipers and I find that my nut is slightly out of parallel to the frets and slightly too far away from the frets.

So even the sound of Open chords was awful.

I'm only talking about small distances here but it is obviously critical. I now need to remove a wedge shaped slice of fretboard which is 0.3mm wide at the 1E side out to about 0.5mm at the 6E side and the thickness of the recess for the Floyd Rose nut.

This will shorten the scale length on the nut end and consequently reduce the amount of error at the bridge end (hopefully by about double). With any luck it will bring the whole thing close to playable.

I'll let you all know how it turns out after the fix.

This prompts me to ask a question of other builders. To what level of accuracy is the spacing of frets expected by hand. The fret spacing calculator provided dimensions down to 1/1000th of a millimeter. I would question whether or not a hand measured fingerboard could be accurate down to anything better than 1/10th of a millimeter. Particularly now that my 20/20 vision has departed and I rely on spectacles for up close work.

Boy is this project a learning curve.

The alteration to the position of the nut made some significant difference for such a small adjustment. I actually have the 1E string now with some adjustment the other way and the 6E is only slightly sharp with the others varying in between. The overall tuning is much better now but I also made some other changes.

I adjusted the camber in the neck and lowered the bridge. I put the 3rd tremolo spring in so the bridge doesn't float much any more and the whole thing has become more stable. Actually it hardly floats at all but that's OK.

There is however another BUT. I can almost produce a half tone bend simply by pressing on the strings between the frets. Maybe I used frets with too high a crown for such a small neck with short spacings. This is perhaps worsened by using such light gauge strings.

I can file the frets down a bit no problem. A couple need a bit of leveling work anyway. I can also put some different strings on. My worry is that if I put heavier gauge strings on it will bring the intonation problem back.

Who would have thought it could be so fragile. It is going to work though which is better than I thought yesterday.

Greg, heavier gauge strings should actually require less compensation. Something else that's not helping you either is the fact that a shorter scale length needs more compensation than a longer one.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

There are some instructions and templates on floyd roses site. You can dig around there and maybe find some info. Being that you bought this from hong kong I might want to think that could be part of the problem. A lot of chinese made product are of inferior quality. But with out actually compairing it to a real floyd can't say for sure thats the problem. Good luck.
http://www.floydrose.com/instructions.html

SniderMike,
Thanks for that. I'll give the heavier gauge strings a try. If what you say works out I should get very close indeed. It's almost achievable as it is. Playable now when yesterday it wasn't really. I need a very light touch with the strings on it at the moment as I said. Pressing the string to the fingerboard between the frets raises the pitch nearly 1 semitone. I checked to specs of the fretwire I used and I'm surprised by this as it's not that high. I used the Stewmac 418 which is Medium wide / Medium high. Heavier strings should alleviate this issue a bit as well hopefully.

MRS,
there is no doubt that the quality of the licensed bridge is not equal to Schaller or similar but at less than 1/4 of the price for a kids guitar it should be fine. It is actually pretty good for the price. The problem lies in the adjusted / unadjusted position of the saddles in relation to the pivot posts.

The real deal must be proportionly different to the one I have. I recieved an email back from the support people at Floyd Rose direct and the positioning of the posts is supposed to be 3/8ths of an inch (10mm) in front of the scale length line. This pretty well matches the info given by the Stewmac calculator but it doesn't work with the bridge I have so only 1 conclusion is possible. They're different.

In order to help solve your problem, some simple measurements need to be brought to the discussion. What is the scale length of your fingerboard (and where were the fret slots cut - by yourself or at a parts distributor)? What are the measurements from the center of the 12th fret to the face of the nut, and from the center of the 12th fret to the crown of the saddles in the center of their adjustment.

You need to stop thinking so much about the posts. Ignore the posts. There are no posts. The posts do not exist - only saddles. Everything depends on the frets, the nut, and the saddles - that's what all your measurements need to focus on. After, and only after you get the relative positions and measurements of those points, then you can worry about how far the posts are offset and locate their proper position. Posts should be thought of byproduct of other factors for the time being though, and need not be immediately considered in diagnosing your problem.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I agree with what you say. All of this needed to be measured and planned before construction but I used the measurements provided by a 3rd party assuming the dimensions of my bridge were the same as any other of the same type.

The distance from nut to 12th fret centre is 289mm and the distance from 12th fret to saddle crown is 293mm with the saddles right back as far as they will go and the neck pulled out by 3mm.

If I were to put the neck back in as it should be and move the saddles to the middle of there adjustment the measurement from fret 12 to saddle crown would be about 285mm, or shorter than half scale length.

Sorry, I accidently submitted too soon.

The fret slots were cut by myself and are in the following position from the nut.

As in earlier post scale length was planned at 22.75 inch or 577.85mm (ie 3/4 size).

Stewmac calculator provided the following info re fret placement:

1 32.432 mm
2 63.044 mm
3 91.938 mm
4 119.210 mm
5 144.952 mm
6 169.248 mm
7 192.181 mm
8 213.827 mm
9 234.258 mm
10 253.543 mm
11 271.745 mm
12 288.925 mm
13 305.141 mm
14 320.447 mm
15 334.894 mm
16 348.530 mm
17 361.401 mm
18 373.549 mm
19 385.016 mm
20 395.839 mm

These frets are correctly cut and there is no problem with the spacing of the frets.

Stewmac claculator also says Bridge placement is at 577.85 mm scale length and the goes on to give "Distances from nut to centre of forward-most mounting screw or pivot post" and gives different positions for a large selection of different bridges. I used the lengths provided for the Floyd Rose style bridges which is given as either 565.103 mm (+- 0.5mm)
or 566.520 mm (+- 0.5mm).

The guitar is built in compliance with all these dimensions but there is no adjustment left. Hence the problem.

I would like to add that the problem is less severe since I corrected the nut placement. The 1E string now has room to be adjusted back the other way as it's 12 fret pitch is now a little flat. The 2B string is spot on in tone and the remaining strings become increasingly sharp.

The 1E and 2B strings are chromatically correct when tested along the fretboard meaning that fret placement is correct. I've measured this with a properly calibrated chromatic tuner not just by ear.

The problem remains that the whole bridge is too close to the nut giving me insufficient backward adjustment. When the affected strings are open tuned to pitch they become progresively sharp in pitch at each succesive fret.

Dang, sorry about your intonation problems, getting all the hardware positioned just so on solidbodies can be quite a hassle. It kind of sounds like by now the best thing to do is make a new neck, all the little adjustments of repositioning the neck and nut location helped, but didnt quite do it. Hey, if you make a new neck for this one, you can use the current neck as a head start for another guitar.

If it was a glued on neck, i would think about pulling the fretboard off and making a new one that would work with the current bridge location, but its a bolt on, so a replacement neck makes more sense. Moving the trem with the guitar all finished and pretty will IMO be more work than making a neck.

To take the nut out of the equation when intonating, i put a capo on the first fret and check the pitch of the new "nut" which is fret 1, referenced to fret 13, which is the new halfway point. This helps to give you an idea of what is going on with the frets if you suspect that the nut may not be positioned optimally.

Good luck getting it sorted out, you did a nice job on the guitar.

_________________
Jordan Aceto
Ithaca, NY

I agree again and I'd already thought of the neck as the beginning of another guitar WITH A FIXED BRIDGE. Your idea about the capo is actually how I discovered my original nut placement was out. With Capo on fret 1 the problem improved but did not disappear.

Today I'll try some different strings. It is interesting to analyse SniderMikes advice that heavier gauge strings require less compensation. On any given guitar it is the lower pitch (ie bigger) strings that require the most adjustment or at least that is my limited experience.

The guitar is actually playing quite well ATM and staying in tune. Unless my son improves his playing really rapidly and starts doing blistering solo adventures right up in the 18 -20 fret area I think it will do for now.

A few more quesitons:

1) how did you cut your nut slots? If measuring manually, did you measure from one fixed spot? Measuring fret-to-fret will introduce errors every time, unless you're a robot capable of absurd tolerances.

2) Is the rest of the setup spot-on? Nut slots that are too high, too much relief, excessively high action can all contribute to bum intonation.

Greg, I meant to say that heavier gauge strings could require less. I don't know that it's always true. Try this though: Tune your low E to pitch and properly intonate it (on a guitar that's capable of this!). Now tune your D string down to the same pitch as the low E, and intonate it. You'll find it needs a lot more compensation than the low E string, even though it's a much lighter gauge string.

_________________
Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Thanks for the interest guys. I was busy doing other things yesterday so haven't tried the heavier strings yet. Rainy Saturday in my part of the world today so I'll give it a go a bit later.

SniderMike,
I see what you are saying now. It's interesting how things sometimes happen the opposite to what you'd expect. I hope your right here as it would actually put the guitar into pretty much perfect intonation. It seems to get better when I put it down and walk away. Last time I looked at it I now have the 1E and 2B strings needing to be compensated back the other way slightly. The 3G and 4D string are spot on and the 5A and 6E are still a little sharp. Maybe its all just settling into place or something.

Mattia Valente,
Yes, I measured the fret slots and cut them by hand. I measured from the edge of the Nut slot to avoid compounding any error. I used magnification, bright lights and high quality steel rule and a 0.3mm pencil to set out and I used the Stewmac fret box and fretsaw to cut the slots when the fingerboard was still completely unshaped, (ie straight parallel edges, square ends and uniform thickness). I am a medically retired secondary school woodwork teacher with 30 years experience so my skill level is reasonable. You will notice that I asked earlier about expected tolerences when cutting slots. I would hope that 0.1mm is as accurate as humanly possible. Standard scientific error only allows for tolerance of half of the smallest graduation of your measuring instrument so in my case that would be only + or - 0.25mm as my steel rule is graduated to 0.5mm. It is not humanly possible to measure down to 1/1000 of a mm in this application. If I were going to set up for production I'd be looking at some sort of mechanical table using a lead screw with known thread pitch and geared handwheels to allow for minute adjustment and accurate referencing and callibration. Dream on eh!!

To answer your other question, I'm still playing around with the rest of the setup configuration. I may have a little too much camber in the neck now. At first it was actually dead straight or even slightly back-bowed and I think I over adjusted it. The Nut (#2 Floyd Rose Locking) is set up accurately in height as per specification using the frets I have in place. It may be a thou or two high if I oversanded the fingerboard but I don't think so. It is now parrallel to, and correct distance away from the frets. The bridge height is set to give the lowest possible action without fret buzz. I've noticed fret 12 is a little high on the 6E end. I got a little excited when I was nearing completion and did my fretting at night. My eyes aren't what they used to be and low-voltage downlight on the dining table was probably not a good idea but I can fix that.

I can pull the neck a little straighter and this will help. I can dress the high fret off or try to seat it in a little better and this will help. I can readjust the action after these corrections are made and it will be better. All this will assist and I should be pretty close to good.

BUT all this still does not give me any future adjustment, or not much anyway. for the sake of having my bridge back 3 -5 mm all this could have been avoided. You must also remember I still have the neck moved out 3mm so there is still the gap to fix. My side pocket contact is very good and tight but I would like the joint to be solid behind the neck as well for good sustain. The tone is good and plucking the strings with my ear up against the body gives a beautiful clear ringing that sustains well. My frequency sensing tuner keeps reading long after the sound is inaudible to the ear. I'm still fairly pleased with the final product and it is now playing fairly well. It doesn't hurt to listen any more.

Double posted for some reason.