Official Luthiers Forum!

As an employer, here's the weak point to all lutherie schools and classes: woodshop machine experience.

See if you can enroll in a adult ed woodshop course. Learn all you can about tool safety and how to setup, fine tune, and maintain bandsaws, table saws, routers, jointers and planers (learn how to replace knives and set them up properly), shapers, etc. Subscribe to Fine Woodworking, buy a bunch of books on all the above.

I said safety, but I can't stress this too much. It really comes down to being aware of the forces involved and anticipating what might go wrong. I think that in 80% of the cases where finger or hand meets whirling blade, it's operator error. That means you. That means you have to truly understand how tools grab wood, how grain can let go and parts blow up. It means that you cannot approach power tools timidly; you have to be in charge of them.

But you're not going to learn much of this in any lutherie school I know of, yet it's essential.

At least with production guitar making, it's all about the woodshop making perfect kits of guitar parts that then get assembled. That means a lot of millwork and then CNC work.

Rick brings up some strong points, consider taking work in a Cabinet Making Shop. I lot of the wood processing operations cross over to guitarmaking. -Vinny

Well, suffice to say that this has been a very down to earth and somewhat sobering discussion for me. I'd like to thank everyone for all the input they've given so far and I hope that I can continue to get great input from all of you. It's really a blessing to be able to hear thoughts from people who are actually out there building and repairing guitars. I think I'm learning a lot from all of you on this forum even though I have yet to build my first guitar. I will continue to do research and be realistic about my goals and expectations. As it stands, there are a few people I'd like to meet to learn some more and a few shops in the area that I'd like to see in order to get some ideas.

Once I think I'm ready, I guess I'll look for a workshop for woodworking and order my first kit (probably serviced for the first time around) to allow me to learn and work on something while I decide which way would be best to go with my education. I will certainly keep you all informed on my progress and I hope to get to know all of you a lot more in the coming days.

Since no one has brached the subject .. I suggest putting together some sort of business plan, at least rough out the numbers. I have had students of mine ask how does my business work, and how much do you make etc. Although I dont go into specifics, i outline it this way.
Lets say you can make 10 guitars a year to start, not a bad number .. and you plan to be able to sell them for 3000 each .. thats 30K gross. But you havent taken into acct the wood/materials expense, the shops heat/climate control and power bills, you need to eat something other than hawg dust, and maybe buy a new pair of pants every once and a while (I get mine at Costco .. 18 bucks buys a pretty decent pair of jeans to get dirty in ). So as you can see, at this rate, without some sort of financial/other job or live/work at home with ma and pa kind of help .. you will likely die out there.

Like Rick said, it will take 3-5 years to get going to some sort of proficency level, and develop a rep - so whats the plan to make it that far ??? I also tell my students that making the guitars consistently isnt that hard, but it take some time to get there .. but selling them consistently is work ....

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

Michael, it sounds like you're fairly young, maybe even a teenager? Still in high school? Or are you a bit older? I'm curious as to why you believe that building guitars would be a profession you would like if you've never even done any woodworking? This isn't asked with the slightest intention of trying to short-circuit your plan, but just to ask to get an idea where you're coming from. Why luthiery? Is it because you play guitar? I think the guys have given you a lot of food for thought here, and the advice to learn some basic woodworking to see if you even like it is a good one. What if you hate working with wood?!! What if you find out you'd rather be fighting fires, or arresting NYC hookers, or trading stocks on Wall Street? Better to find out before you spend a ton of money on it. So sit down and write down all the things you think you could see yourself doing for the rest of your life. Weigh the costs and the future possible earnings outcomes. Make an informed decision based on what will be the best thing for you and your life goals.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

There is of course putting out and arresting flaming hookers on Wall Street!
Sorry Don as a NY'er I could not resist. Good advice though.
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

You're probably already realizing from reading this forum that there are widely varying opinions on just about every topic, and many different ways to approach guitar building, whether you're looking at one specific step in the process or the whole way of looking at the big picture. For example, Rick stresses machine experience (essential for a production environment, for sure), while others might encourage you to build using primarily hand tools. There are people doing excellent work and making a living doing it following many different paths (I don't mean to suggest that it's anything like easy to make a living at lutherie). There are lots of ways to learn as well, as have been discussed here, and you will find what works best for you.

A sobering reality check is always a good thing, but, if you feel strongly motivated to do something, and have solid reason to believe you have what it takes (talent, determination, patience, etc), don't let the sobering reality checks discourage you.

If I were you, I'd start by joining the Guild of American Luthiers and attending the convention in June. I think you would find that to be money very well spent. Not only will you learn a lot about lutherie, but you will get a much better sense of the nature of the work, the business, etc, that should help you sort out your questions. I hope to see you there!

Speaking for myself, if I didn't have kids and all the things that tie me to my life here in Ithaca, I would find a way to swing the financial part of going to a school like Roberto-Venn. It's just not an option for me. What I have done is take several short-term courses, including one with Charles Fox and one with Sergei de Jonge*. I've gotten a huge amount out of each of these, and I would suggest that a course like Sergei's could be a great way to start, in that you'd learn a whole lot and get a good sense of how much you really love doing this - AND where you stand with talent, patience, and determination (it will take a lot of each of these to end the course with a really fabulous guitar, so if you can pull that off, that tells you a lot about what you're capable of).

I have to differ a bit with what Warren said about Sergei's course, regarding the things he said you won't learn. I felt I learned a lot about all of the above. Making use of Sergei's teaching, I designed my own bracing and many other elements of the guitar (e.g. a pinless bridge, which is not Sergei's usual thing). It's true that Sergei is a man of relatively few words with regard to how to make a great sounding guitar, but if you really pay attention to what he does say and get the full implications thereof, you've got a strong foundation on which to build. Your own intuition and understanding of the mechanics of the instrument (which you can develop through reading and studying - this forum being one good source of info) will serve you well also. I had built one guitar prior to that class, and otherwise had only very basic wood working skills. I did have a lot of background in working with my hands in other media, as I've been an artist and craftsman all my life. The guitar I built in the course sounds great (an opinion shared by Sergei and many fine players who've played it), and, if I'm may be bold enough to say so myself, compares very well (in craftsmanship and every other respect) to guitars I've seen and played by well established builders selling their instruments for mega thousands (again, this opinion is shared by people I would trust to give me a "sobering reality check", not just my wife and my buddies). The point is not to blow my own horn, but to underscore the fact that you get out of it what you put into it; it all it has to do with WHO YOU ARE; the potential is definitely there in Sergei's class (and most of the others out there, I would think) to do great work and make great strides in learning. Sergei is a top-notch, world class guitar maker, held in high esteem by his peers, so the potential to learn and absorb great stuff from him is particularly big, I'd say.

My biggest demon is self-doubt, so for me, it's especially important that I don't let myself get discouraged by those who make the task or the process sound (whether they intend to or not) insurmountable. It can seem that way, but it ain't. And the challenges that somebody else has faced, no matter how authoritative they may sound on the subject, may be nothing at all to you. There's always another story, and you will write your own. So, there's my little personal confession and sermon.

Hooking up with luthiers (both builders and repairers) in your area is excellent advice. You just might find someone who's willing to teach you in one capacity or another. Talk to Evan!

Good luck!

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

I would say I'm pretty young. I'll be turning 24 this coming November so I'd like to think that I've got a good number of years left in me. ^^ It's a bit of a tricky age since I'm still young enough to go in any direction from here, but not young enough to be lingering around as I am for much longer. While I'm blessed with the fact that I can save some money by living in my parents' home, I don't want to bother them too much longer.

As for why I want to get into luthiery, the answer is a bit long and complicated... The short version is simply because I love guitars. Actually, I love all stringed instruments, but particularly the guitar. I don't feel that my lack of experience actually doing any work with wood should have a bearing on the profession that I choose to pursue simply because that lack of experience is a result of circumstance. I don't exactly have many trees around my house to begin with. Nobody in my family has ever been a cabinet maker or a carpenter. The closest would probably be my father who was a mechanic in Korea... I haven't known any woodworkers in my life so I never really had any reason to pick up a piece of wood and do something with it, especially since the majority of my childhood and teenage years were spend in school during the daytime and in an academic prep school after school until nighttime. The only ideas pushed into my head were those to study, do well on tests, and become a doctor or a lawyer so my parents could brag to all of their friends about how successful I am(every Korean mother's fantasy...). I considered my lack of experience with woodworking, of course. But at the same time, I know plenty of people that have carried their own dreams of becoming a surgeon long before they ever held a scalpel. They didn't let their lack of experience cutting people open stop them from pursuing their dreams so I don't see why I should. We all get into things or begin studying things with no real understanding of what it's like until we actually try it. Some of us find that we don't like it and quit when we do end up trying it in school or in the field. Some of us don't like it, but press on for whatever reason. And others of us find that we enjoy it, but in the end, you don't know until you try it, right?

I've had plenty of time to think about what I wanted to do with my life. I've spend the past 5 years reflecting on my life's aspirations. Sometimes I get sad because there's actually so much that I want to do, but I only have one life with which to do it. And I don't know if I'll enjoy fighting fires or arresting NYC hookers more because I've never tried it. But if I stood here and tried to consider every single occupation possible and pursued every one of them until I found the one that I absolutely love the most, then I'd be standing here for a lifetime. When we choose a path in life, we give up all of the other things we could have done and maybe some of them are things we would have enjoyed more, but that doesn't really matter because you've chosen the path you've chosen and that's it. I think a person just has to consider as much as they can, take their best guess, and go for it and that's pretty much what I'm doing. If I absolutely hate woodworking, then I hate woodworking. There's nothing I can really do about that, right? If it's something I felt would make me miserable for the rest of my life, then I suppose I really wouldn't pursue it very far. But I do have goals and aspirations within the craft so if it was bearable, I don't see myself quitting so long as I still have those goals to hang onto. Whether it's something I hate or love, something I can or can't live with.. these are all things I will never know until I take my first steps in. And I don't expect that I'll love and enjoy every aspect of it, of course. That's unrealistic. There are always things that we'll have to suck up for the greater purpose.

If I was so worried about future possible earnings, then I would have applied for an Ivy League school, which I probably could have easily gotten into, and gone for my medical degree... I am not choosing this path out of lack of options. I'm choosing this path because life is short and I'd rather find a job that makes me happy than a job that pays me a six-figure salary. This is not to say anything bad about doctors or people with well-paying jobs, but just to say that I feel that too many people choose their respective career paths for the wrong reasons. If someone honestly wants to heal the sick or help people feel better, then all power to them, be a doctor... But what's the point of going through all that for money or recognition? I don't know.. I'm going way off topic here.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, but I think I'm pretty set on what I want to do and experienced or not, I intend to make it work. And I understand your post and I understand that you're not trying to shoot me down, so don't worry. I hope this has helped you get a better idea of where I'm coming from. ^^ There's so much more that I'd like to say, but I need to start working now so you'll probably get to know me better in the coming days.

- Michael Jin

A lot of good advice offered so far, but if you're really serious about setting out on your own some day, for goodness sake study how to run a business, as well!

It won't matter how well you can build or repair a guitar if you can't run your business.

Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT forget to study your business skills.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Yes, Elliott Spitzer took that course, but he got too near the flames!

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Hank Mauel

As an aside, all the guitar makers I respect most have some sort of background in machining or engineering. If you want the safest route to becoming a guitar maker, go earn one of those iron rings while you get your building chops up. Mario has an engineering degree on his wall, Kevin Ryan used to work in Aerospace on some pretty big projects, and Al Carruth just knows stuff...I don't even know where it comes from...but it didn't pop into his head out of nowhere

Worst case, you end up making a load of cash as an engineer and building a guitar a week in your spare time...and you can quit and start building guitars full-time anytime you want. I opened a machine shop to work on my way to 'the dream'. All this making parts for others guitars, and others cars, and others vacuum thermoformed food packaging factories...has given me access to (and ownership of) the kind of tools I wanted to build my guitars as well as a shop and an income. I'm going to bring some really spiffy guitars to the Montreal Guitar Show, but I'm still going to eat if noone even looks at 'em (and if some chain wants me to make them 50 next year then I close my shop!).

The moral is that success in this industry depends a lot on 'building a business', and having the staying power to not make enough to live off of on your guitars for X years can be an important part of that success. So, having a currently paying job that will directly fuel your future career with experience/tools/money is a good way to go. Tangential occupations, if you will.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Hi, Michael. I teach an electric guitar building class at Red Rocks Community College in Denver, CO. It is part of the Fine Woodworking program, which is one of the biggest in the nation. Robbie O'Brien, another member of this forum, teaches classical and steel string building classes there as well, and there is a mandolin and violin building class, plus a repair class too. The school is growing quickly, and they are all great programs, plus you can also learn a great deal more about woodworking in general, as Rick has suggested doing.

We aren't able to go into as much detail as dedicated schools like RV or Galloup, and we have a very limited budget and space. But we are a fraction of the cost. I think it's a good way to find out if this is something that's really for you without dropping $20k. If it is something you like, and the classroom setting is for you, then you can always go to RV or Galloup with a good head start. If you are serious about it, you will continue to learn wherever and however you can.

And I don't think Grumpy is trying to say that taking up the profession is hopeless, I think he's just being realistic and is pointing out that you'll probably want to work for yourself. The big factories don't need a skilled luthier to come in and glue kerfed linings to rims, or do other compartmentalized tasks. Sure, there's probably positions for great builders in custom shops and design departments, but they are few and far between and require many years of experience. It's just good to know what you're getting into. I was lucky enough to get an apprenticeship when I started out, but I did it for virtually no pay, and had to do crappy things like clean out gutters and scrape paint off a closet floor with a card scraper. I also got a day job to pay the bills (and learn more about woodworking). Then with that experience I got another apprenticeship, took classes myself at Red Rocks, and eventually started teaching, selling, and getting payed.

Obviously there's many ways to go, and there's already been a ton of great advice in this thread.

Just my two cents.

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Mike

"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh." The Stranger

Some of my favorite Luthiers are attorneys and economists....... Take a bow Mr. Klepper and Mr. White. And another of my favorites is a geologist and I am speaking of Colin. Mike Doolin is/was a software architect. My point here is that talented and creative people do make great Luthiers sometimes. Engineering is an excellent background to have as well.

If I could be 24 all over again I would do this: Build several guitars on my own and immerse myself in Lutherie 24/7 learning, reading, doing all I can to gain knowledge and understand the craft. I would also jump at the chance as Rick recommends to work as a repair person for perhaps a guitar store.

Once I had a few guitars under my belt I would consider a formal education at one of the many very fine Lutherie schools. And then, like my friend Mark Tripp I would apprentice for a great Luthier like Somogyi for a couple years.

This tract in my view is highly focused, graduated in complexity level enough so that you won't find yourself taking or doing any thing advanced beyond your level to benefit from it, and laser focused on launching you 4-5 years down the road as an experienced, highly trained Luthier.

Point well taken, but are these people that have degrees people who initially had in mind to be luthiers, or is it something that they took up after studying for some other occupation? I can understand how it would help to have a backup and how background in other areas such as engineering can be beneficial to a luthier. I can also understand that a person might have pursued something else and decided to turn a hobby they picked up into an occupation... but it also seems like you'd spend more time preparing your backup than you would actually pursuing your primary occupation (assuming that your primary occupation is luthiery) if you take a roundabout route like this. So in that sense, it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. I mean.. if you wanted to be an engineer, you wouldn't exactly study luthiery first as a backup just in case engineering doesn't work out so why would you do the opposite? ^^;; Just my thoughts.

All good stuff, ad I'll add again how many hats you have to wear if you're going t make a living at this. You DO have to know something about electricity, because if an outlet goes dead, or the router doesn't work today, or whatever, you have to fix it, NOW. You can't be calling an electrician every time. You have to be a mechanic of sorts, because you WILL have to repair machinery and set it up, accurately, then maintain it. You have to be an improviser, and a very good improviser, because everything requires on-the-fly improvising, even if it's just a bit. Then you have to understand wood. I mean, REALLY understand wood. Then there's the finish work, another completely different animal. Even if yo sub-contract this part out, you'll still need to know repairs and how to buff, because bench dings and scratches WILL happen.

Then there's the business side, and my first response to anyone and everyone who asks where they should start, is to go take a business course. If you miraculously turn out to have the chops and improvising skills to build saleable instruments within the first year, you then have to learn marketing, inventory control, setting up and maintaining a shop, taxes(paying and charging). In short, you are a manufacturer, and a point of sale; it's as complicated a task as any.

So, get a good paying job, get a good skill set and diploma on the wall to fall back on, and start making AND repairing instruments in your spare, studying and reading everything you can find, and see where it leads. I don't know of a single person making their living at this who simply decided, without any experience, to go learn it, and then open up shop. It just doesn't work that way. It's a lifelong learning curve; no way you can learn enough of it in one shot, and then combine the hands-on skills, then build a good enough reputation and brand recognition to survive without another income for th first 5+ years.

1) I am not an attorney; unless being one is an incurable chronic disease (it may be, in which case I would have to say that I have 20 years in recovery).

2) Most of my favorite builders do not have a background in engineering. I regret not having taken machine shop in high school, though (I was handicapped by having been labeled at an early age as bound for higher education).

3) The best way, or at least the first and last way to learn to build guitars, is by building guitars. True story that I'm sure my friend John Mello won't mind my repeating: As a very young man he decided he wanted to build guitars, and went to Richard Schneider asking to be an apprentice. Schneider told him to come back after he had built a guitar. John's first thought was, "Isn't that what I came to you to learn?" But he went home and built a guitar and realized the wisdom of what Schneider said. By figuring out on his own how to build the first one, he would test his talent and dedication and love of the craft, and find out what he needed to get from working with a great builder. He came back a year later with a guitar and became an apprentice.

4) Small guitar factories are good places to learn how to work in a small guitar factory. The prominent owner of one such place (and I'm not sure that it would be OK to identify him) told me that he is not looking for luthier wannabes, he is looking for factory worker wannabes. He does not give his workers experience in all the work stations, because those who want this are those who will leave to become his competitors, or at least to become single luthiers, in which case he will lose a worker in whom he has an investment.

Take the above for what it's worth. I don't claim to know what you ought to do.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Excellent advice from all. Agree on the necessity of business skills. Most people who are self employed do so because they love what they do, but find themselves mired down in the business end of things and eventually hate their business because they spend most of their time not doing what they loved about it in the first place.

If you need to learn woodworking skills, check out the Marc Adams School of Woodworking - the best in the country. You can take weekend, weeklong or 2 week classes. They are taught by top notch instructors from all over the country and will propel your woodworking skills to a very high level. Check it out.
http://www.marcadams.com

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John Ressler

I just want to reiterate that things that may involve a lot of challenge and learning for many people can come very easily to somebody else. For example, some people are just naturals at the business end of things - marketing, customer relations, doing taxes and all that are relatively effortless tasks for which they have an innate ability. For other people, design and engineering may be their natural talents, and they may excel in these areas without any formal training and without any sense of it being difficult. For others, excellence in artistry and craftsmanship just flows like turning on a tap. Any part, or any several parts, of the luthier's multi-faceted job may be that way for any given individual. My point, again, is just not to allow yourself to be too daunted by any of it until you try it. Take honest stock of your talents, and what you enjoy, along the way and adjust your goals accordingly, but don't assume that just because you hear from others that the business end, or any other part of it, will be a struggle or a major learning curve, that that will be the case for you.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

This has actually turned into quite the interesting discussion for me. It's nice to hear everyone's differing opinions on the subject and it's fascinating to see how different viewpoints can really be. I don't mean to come off as a person who's being naive or anything. I just live by a certain philosophy. For me, I always figure if I have enough time to worry about how I'll manage if I fail, I might as well spend that time thinking instead about what I can do to succeed despite any hardships. I feel this way because so long as I succeed, I need not worry about what I might do if I fail. ^^ This is why I dismiss (well, not "dismiss" per say, but more "try not to dwell on") any talk about backup professions or easing my way from hobby to profession. Of course if that's the only logical way in, then I'll take it, but barring that, I'd prefer to focus more on the most direct path I can take. I can start being realistic and compromising to fit reality once I have that in mind.

But of course nobody wants to starve to death or be evicted from their home. This is logical. =P

Anyway, many thanks to all of you and I am grateful for all of your insight.