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I'm contemplating building a baritone guitar, and am testing the waters. A few issues came to mind, so here they go.
Anyone have a preference on scale length? I've seen 27.5 to 28.5 and more. I realize that people will use different tunings at different scale lengths, but I am curious to know more about advantages and disadvantages.
That leads to the next bit; what about truss rods? There are different makes and lengths for these. What do our friendly OLFers think about these in relation to baritones and thus the different scale lengths?
Any preferences as to tuning, and why?
Some of these are pretty basic questions, but I value opinions from the Forum.
I have built both classical and steel strings and am always interested in new and different projects.
I play fingerstyle primarily, and have a budding interest in Celtic music. I still have lots of fun with acoustic rock/indie style music.

Craig, this is a timely question for me too! I'm currently building my fourth, which will be a Baritone. I have very little experience, that goes without saying but here are a few things that came to my mind while planning the Bari.

First, I wanted the scale as long as possible as the Access cases I have would permit. I figured the longer the scale, the more tension to the strings, thus enabling lower tones (notes) without buzzing. For the Access 3 case, this came out to a scale of 29 inches. It's going to be a tight fit, but won't need to be ordering special custom cases. Although, I am contemplating moving over to Ameritage cases in the near future. I use the Access 3 because it is a bit larger in the bout areas compared to the Access 5 and my standard dread (modified) is a big girl at just a hair under 16 inches at the lower bout, which is the shape I'll be using.

The tunning is entirely up to the player, but usually, the standard tunning is from B to B, or a full tone lower, A to A. Some will go lower still. So basically, you can play all the songs you know in standard tunning but they will just sound that much lower. If you're playing alternate tunnings, I imagine you keep from B to B and just tune/de-tune accordingly. If you want to check out a master players on Baritones, check these guys out.

Don Ross playing Dracula and Friends Part II, tunning (low-high) G#, F#, A#, B, F#, C# : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjzX6F6DmQA

Andy McKee playing a Don Ross song, Tight Trite Night on a Bari, tunned B - B : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn1d5DmdMqY

The next consideration was if I wanted a 14 or 15 fretter to the body. After making many plans and trying out different soundhole locations and different X placements, I found that a 14 fretter worked for me.

As for wood selection, I chose Wenge because I had it on hand and it cost me next to nothing. More experienced builder usually recommend Hog or Walnut for a Bari. Since this was my first, I wanted to try and keep the costs low and since it's a personnal instrument, I didn't mind experimenting a bit for the sake of my wallet...

I haven't checked out bass truss rods, but I figured in the worse case scenario, I would just build my own à la Cumpiano if I didn't find one that fits.

The last thing I will take into consideration is the pull of the strings. Baritone strings are much larger than regular strings and although I can't quote the number exactly, I think they exert about 20% more pressure on the top. I want to make my top bracing just a touch heavier than usual, even though the usual is probably plenty stiff anyway.

Hope this helps.

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Alain,

String tension shouldn't be any more than on a "normal" scale length instrument. The baritone strings are heavier gauge to cope with the lower tuning at longer scale length. You can design a set of strings for each tuning based on your instrument's scale length that gives the right tension. I have some more about this on my website here. You don't need heavier bracing. Hardest is getting the lowest string to sound good "acoustically" when it goes down to low A or lower. You don't need to brace heavier but you do need to think about how the box/soundhole size relationship works for the low notes. Alan Carruth had some good pointers on a recent post.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

This is a timely question for me as well. I am just starting work on my first Baritone but still have some design issues to figure out. I am planing to build a 27.5 for my first try. I know that it won't handle the really low tunings as well as say a 29 in. will but I am also thinking about playability and reach. I have a lot of the same questions as Craig does, plus..

I would like to know how other builders go about calculating saddle compensation for these long scale lengths (or any length for that matter). I noticed that StewMac has a compensation calculator on there web site. Has anyone used it?

Josh

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Josh House

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Dave, right on!!! I stand corrected. Now that I think of it, they would exert more pressure would they be tunned at standard A440. Since the instrument is tunned lower, it lessens the string tension accordingly... Doh!

Cheers!

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I'd like to be able to prove, just for once, that money wouldn't make me happy...

Opinions vary on how best to approach this; I like longer scales (between 28 and 29") and heavier string sets (like LaBella's baritone sets, 15-80's, not just tuned down standard guage strings); I've got the first true acoustic in the works (inspired by Dave Berkowitz and Linda Manzer's work), and I've got a 'solidbody acoustic' (ie, piezo in a chambered solidbody) with a 28.7 scale and those strings that sounds fantastic.

Hye Josh .. good on ya .. give it a go .. i would say go longer though, 28 at least.

I have built a few bari's now .... 28 to 29 inch scales, one multiscale on the go, and my std is now 28.5. Softer woods tend oto sound warmer than rosewoods ... koa, hog, walnut etc.

Comp .. using the Daddario bari set, I set the high B at just over the scale length, the low b at 4mm added, with a 3/16 saddle .. seems to work out fine.

bracing .. same sizings as a reg guitar, maybe a touch heavier ... the heavier strings exert more tension (the Daddarios are very high, but rated at 29.75 scale), but reasonable at 28.5 or 28.

Low A tunings dont work well acoustically, they are OK, but my baris sound better in B IMO.. the box, even a jumbo, isnt really large enough to produce good tone down there - its not about scale length and tensions, its the physical limits of the box and top producing that freq with any volume - there is a reason why string basses are so bloomin huge !!!!. Another big difference is that most strings over about .066 are double wound .. they sound different than a single wound.

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Tony Karol
www.karol-guitars.com
"let my passion .. fulfill yours"

I have built a couple. I like 28-28.5" scale and 14 frets to the body, which is 20" tall. That is comfortable for me and gets the bridge somewhere near the center of the soundboard which I believe is critical for a baritone as it allows for max bass.

I find the D'adario strings to have way too much tension to be comfortable at this scale length. I like the La Bella and John Pearse strings.

For the truss rod: LMI will make you a custom length truss rod for no extra charge.

Ok you baritone players and builders out there. I have a question for you. I have built in the past many guitars that were set-up for specific tuning out side of the EADGBE tuning. As well a a few that were set up for a standard tuning but would be on occasion used for lower tunings. I find can never set up a guitar that plays at its best in an alternate tuning than what it was built for and intonated to. I have on occasion supplied multiple nuts and saddles intonated for the alternate tuning and larger gauge strings but even then not totally pleased with both tunings. The string tension and standing wave have a major effect on action as well as intonation.

I assume this is even more of an issue with baritone since the sting gauge is beefier. So do you builders prefer to build to one tuning and recommend a separate instrument for an alternate tuning or do you supply a second nut and bridge intonated for the alternate tuning or except a variance in performance characteristics?

David, I have to disagree with you on string tension. On a B-B tuning, only a 27.5" scale "baritone" will have the equivalent tension of a set of mediums. Otherwise, unless you're using strings that are way too light to really support the notes, you'll find that string tension ranges from around 200 to almost 240lbs depending upon your scale and gauging. For example, the Tacoma with the 29" scale and the D'Addario EXP23 baritone set gives you a string tension of 225.59lbs in a B-B tuning. Because of the available gauging (both core and wrap construction), sometimes a shorter scale will end up with higher tension than one with a longer scale.

David,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. The D'Addario baritone sets put way too much tension on the first five strings - these are tuned inside the normal guitar range. The hard one to pull off is the bottom string. On my 29" scale length bari's a set of D'Addatio EJ 18's with the bottom string replaced by a 70 gives great acoustic tone in B-B. Total string tension is around 166lbs. I f I was playing in altered tunings from B-B I would probably beef up the first two strings a little. Here is a recording of my first bari in AEADEA tuning.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

That guitar sounds beautiful. Awesome work

What's the song that's being played? I'm sure I recognize it

Jammy,

Thanks - it's my own composition "Treebeards Dance" played by me.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Michael,

You will have to take what I say here knowing that I am a somewhat "maverick" builder and so what I do may not be on the central part of a normal curve for other makers. I came to guitar making as a player of over 40 years and an awful lot of those years spent playing in many varied altered or dropped tunings. I do play occasionally in that wierd EADGBE tuning as well. The idea to me as a player that each time I want to move into or between altered tunings I have to take off the strings and fit a new saddle is just a bit silly. The solution I have adopted is firstly a split saddle (not necessary I suspect but I find it gives me excellent intonation with the strings in the centre of the saddle rather than having a shaped/sculpted single saddle), and secondly a steeper angle than most use on the saddle for the bottom four strings. The string lengths (nut edge to saddle) in relation to the pure scale length (with no compensation) for scale lengths of around 650mm are +2mm, +4mm, +2mm +4mm, +6mm, +8mm. When tuned to EADGBE the lowest string intonates a little flat but this fits in with how your (or at least my) ear hears this string and intonation when I play is fine. As you capo up the neck you don't have to ajust the bottom string tuning as you have to on a lot of guitars. I can happily play with 12-53 strings in standard and the drop to D, G and C tunings quite happily with no intonation problems. On my 29" scale baritones I have a slightly deeper rake still on the bottom four strings saddle.

A lot of the "real" intonation lies in the players fingers.

Feel free to break out the dancing laughing emoticins but it works for me. Every builder is different.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Probably the wisest thing that has ever been said on this forum. I'll repeat for those that need it said twice, probably the wisest thing that has ever been said on this forum.



Colin

Bliss emoticons OK Dave?

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

David,

I'm not sure where your getting your number for the string tension, but according to D'Addario's string tension chart, which calculates the string tension based upon the unit weight of the particular gauge and formulation (UW), the scale length, and the frequency to which it is tuned, I calculate a string tension for your set on a 29" scale, in B-B at 266.25lbs of tension. A B-B tuning includes the following frequencies, gauging, and unit weight, tension.

B (61.7hz) 70w, UW: 0.00096833, 32.09316762lbs
E (82.4hz) 59w, UW: 0.00070535, 41.69442255lbs
A (110hz) 49w, UW: 0.00049151, 51.77696595lbs
D (146.8hz) 39w, UW: 0.00031125, 58.39562899lbs
F# (185hz) 27w, UW: 0.00014834, 44.19983019lbs
B (246.9hz) 18p, UW: 0.00007177, 38.08938807lbs

These were calculated using the unit weights for plain steel and phosphor bronze strings from D'Addario's string tension guide. The formula is:

[UW x (2 x Scale length x Frequency)EXP2]/384.6= String tension

I couldn't figure out how to put the font in super script so EXP2 means squared.

D'Addario's String Tension Guide: http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_chart.pdf

I have to agree with David.

Most of my baritone string tensions range in the 220 to 260 area. Which is about the same as a 12-string. So when I tell people to brace guitars, I tell them to keep that in mind. Between David and I, I think we've built more baritones than anybody else, and have probably experimented with more string gauges along the way.

Lance

David,

If you read my post you'd have seen that I said that I use D'Addario EJ18's but replace the bottom string with a 70. So you have 14,18,27,39,49,70. On a 29" scale length tuned BEADF#B this give 166lb tension. There is still plenty of lattitude to customise these gauges further up to around 180-190lbs if you want to.

I have only made three baritones which represent around 10% of the instruments I have made so I have no claim in a "urinating" match - although Martin Simpson played my first baritone and liked it a lot, and I did post a sound clip in my defense - and have the greatest respect for both you and Lance McCollum, even though I have never played any of your instruments.

I know all about the difficulties of tuning really low and getting the box/bracing design to support purely acoustically the really low notes and register, but I would love for you and Lance to explain to me more why, in the top five strings that sit within the "normal" guitar register you need to increase string tension by between 37-91%!!

Comparing with a set of EJ16's (12-53) tuned EADGBE on a 25.5" scale length and the strings you calculated for on a 29" scale length on the first five strings you get:

1st: 23.35lb plays 32.09lb an increase of 37%
2nd: 23.3lb plays 46.9lb an increase of 79%
3rd: 30.24lb plays 51.78lb an increase of 71%
4th: 30.53lb plays 58.4lb an increase of 91%
5th: 29.93lb plays 44.2lb and increase of 48%

If a builder wants to build an instrument to support 200-260lbs of string tension (12 string territory) then by all means do so and brace accordingly but why wouldn't you do the same for a 25,5" scale guitar for the first 5, or middle four strings?

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

David,

Neither I nor Lance (if I may speak for him) are trying to engage in some kind of pissing match -- more often than not a pissing match ends with piss on your own pant leg. However, we both, along with Linda Manzer and others have built a number of baritones, and on a variety of different scales and similarly have strung our instruments with gauging higher in tension than your own.

I misread your posting and so I must agree that your math is correct and you are running about 166 lbs (many baritone sets are made by throwing away the first string and adding a heavier string on the bottom and as such I misread your posting and followed convention), so my apologies for my confusion.

Lets start with your set. At 166lbs it is below a standard set of medium gauge strings (EJ17's, 13-56) on a 25.5" scale with 188lbs of tension. Strings sound the best the closer they get to their breaking point. Ask any string engineer and they will confirm this. When I built my first baritone, I consulted the late Jim Rickard, string engineer for D'Addario. That set, on a 30" scale and tuned A-A, was 18 - 80, and had over 190lbs of tension. In B, it would be much higher.

One of the fundamental problems of determining string gauging is where does the instrument live sonically, i.e., is it going to live in A-A, or B-B. Does the player need the instrument to function in both A and B tunings. It is very hard to get anything useful out of a A-A tuning without high tension. I have a hard time believing that your gauging would function in A. My gauging on a 28.59" scale functions ok, but its tension is over 207lbs in B. Linda Manzer's baritone for Pat Metheny is on a 28.75" scale and has 238lbs of tension when tuned in B, but is nicely at 183 in A. That instrument covers all the ground. Lance I'm sure will fill out the details of his own instruments, as I don't have that data.

The other factors are available gauging and string behavior at longer scales and lower tunings. The longer you go, the higher the tension you need to have in order to have an equivalent output and equivalent string behavior, i.e., actual displacement of the string such that one can have reasonably low action and by that I mean very close to standard 3/33 x 2/32 action at the 12th fret. Other factors include that the higher the string density, the lower the pitch, so using fatter strings contributes to the tone.

Several things affect string behavior: as tension increases, so does pitch, as density goes up pitch goes down, a doubling of scale length at the same tension is an octave drop in pitch. Then there is the problem of relative potential energy. Our ears are most sensitive to frequencies from 1000-5000hz. In order to perceive equivalent volume the amount of energy for lower frequencies has to be higher. Low frequencies are less directional and require more power relative to higher frequencies -- it is for this reason that one needs more power to drive a woofer than a tweeter. Then there is the behavior of a string vibrating at those frequencies. A string vibrating at B (61.7hz ) has a greater arc than one vibrating at B (246.9hz). Although this is axiomatic for all scale lengths, the relationship as you increase the scale length is logarithmic, not linear, so the tension necessary to maintain the string's behavioral dynamics increases at increasingly greater rates as the scale length gets longer.

I'll have more to add, and Lance, please chime in. I've got calls out to some of my sources to get more thorough information than I have at my fingertips. One thought to consider is that D'Addario is pretty thorough in their research. There is a reason that they set their EXP23 sets with tension as high as it is.

David,

Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful reply. I apologise for my slightly "testy" earlier response.

I design and build my guitars (non baritone) to use 12-52 gauge strings and have responsive, loud guitars with great projection using these - even in dropped/alternative tunings which is where I as a player play most, in fact almost exclusively - and they are easier on a players fingers. A step up to 13-53's and around 190lb is not such a big hike but a jump to 220-260lbs most definitely is. Indeed the 18-80's that Jim Rickard came up with for you in A-A with over 190lb and Linda Manzers 183lb are in this range - certainly not 220-260lb. If you are going to play B-B then why rack up the tension by keeping the same string gaugues - I wouldn't tune my normal guitar up three semitones with the same string gauges.

I am no string technology expert for sure and read with interest what you say about string properties and look forward to reading the other stuff you are putting together. I would be really interested to see a comparison in terms of % closeness to string breakage of the 18-70 set you quoted on a 29" scale length tuned B-B at 266lb with a set of 12-52 (or 13-53) tuned EADGBE on a 25.5" scale guitar at 166lb. Are they similar or would you have to beef up significantly the 12-52's to get the same closeness to breaking and if so why don't we on the normal guitar? This I suppose is really the nub of my point. If they are the same then I can see some of the logic for increasing string tension 60% for a 14% increase in scale length to stay "equivalent".

A baritone in A-A and a normal guitar in EADGBE have a significant tonal overlap - the top 5 of the bari and bottom 4 strings of the normal overlap and the first string of the bari is in normal territory. The lowest string on the bari is the real holy grail and I have personally not heard one that really works well "purely acoustically" in the A-A range as you get into double-wound territory and do dropped tunings from there and agree with what Tony Karol said. Plugged in yes, a different thing alltogether.

I have only made 3 baritones so far but have tried and used many varied combinations of string gauges - some of which went up to around 205lbs total tension. D'Addarios are the strings I use on everything - fantastic company and strings - but their sets are designed to what they can sell most. Annoyingly they don't do a 13.17,24,32,42,53 set that I would buy for DADGAD and other dropped tunings on normal guitars. Baritones and their scale length and range of tunings within a given scale length is very much a varied and complicated territory and a one gauge set fits all is not going to work here.

Apologies to Alain for going off on a tangent - but, I hope, a very interesting and related one - but I was trying to say that you don't have to build a baritone to have 220-260lbs string tension to get great tone and I was using the soundclip as evidence. I have others that I can post too. If you are going to use these string tensions then by all means do so an brace accordingly.

It's a pity David that you Lance and the other baritone builders I genuinely admire are so far away as I'd love to sit down with you and swap instruments for you to play and hear - I do have one in the US that lives a few miles away from the Martin factory in Nazareth PA.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

David,

Just a few quick observations and then its going to have to wait until I hear from a few folks to flesh this out more. Part of the operational dynamics here is the ability to provide the greatest flexibility to the player in terms of tunings. You commented that the Rickard set was more to your liking. the problem with Jim's set is that it is optimized for A-A, only. You can go down to G, but you can't take it up to B. Another problem is most baritone customers really haven't spent a lot of time with one, so the job of the builder is to provide as flexible a place to start as possible.

As for string tension and tone, look no further than Stevie Ray Vaughn and Jimmy Vaughn who both used heavy, heavy strings on their guitars. Arguably a more modest set would suit an electric player, but their preference was for fatter wire because of the tone.

As for the double wound connundrum, there isn't any way around it. It's a funny thing and people tend to forget that there is a significant difference in presentation between a wound and unwound string as well. You can get up to about a .064" in a single wrap, but anthing over that and you're into double wound territory. Then string tension really comes into play.

As for string tension/tone issue, I stand by my argument that the heavier gauging sounds better. The lighter gauging will give you easier playability, particularly if you have a weak right hand (not meant to be offensive, just a practical observation) because someone who is classically trained and has a strong right hand will find the light gauging too sloppy for their tastes. Heavier strings give you more tone because of their greater mass.

The sound clips while pleasant are demonstrative of nothing in particular. I'm an audio engineer when not building guitars and you can make just about anything that plays in tune sound pretty good by playing with mic position, mic selection, how dry the room, the kind of player and so forth. I like making my judgements live.

David,

Thanks again for the response and as I say I look forward to the further stuff.

All of the points you make about heavier gauge strings in relation to tone and playability apply equally to a standard scale length guitar but I don't see the majority of custom builders making OM's to take super heavy gauge strings and 260lb string tension. Also your point about Stevie Ray and Jimmy is interesting as their 12th fret actions on electrics were no where near the ones you are aiming for on your bari's - they were definitely "manly actions" By the way my right arm is fully functional A classically trained player would also be used to a much higher action and so the string arc thing would not be such an issue.

I hear what you say about flexibility and your customers needs but I think in the long term it is misleading them slightly that the same set of string gauges will perform perfectly well as you tune up and down by a whole tone or more - as I say you wouldn't do this on a standard guitar if a customer wanted to go from standard to Open E at will with the same set of strings. The baritone is a very versatile instrument and a very niche market for the sort of players wanting one - being able to design and vary string gauge sets (and maybe another nut) gives a huge potential sound pallette to tune down from D-D to A-A with shades in between. I believe there is also a trade off between tone subtlety and having to build for the potential of a six string guitar sitting constantly under 260lb string tension - and lifetime warranty issues.

Do you happen to know what scale length and tuning the D'Addario EXP23 set was developed and "optimised" for?

What happens when you progressively capo up the neck on a 29" scale baritone in B-B with 266lbs string tension? By the time you get to the second fret you are pretty much back to the normal scale length guitar territory so the string arc issue is back in that territory but you have 60% more string tension?

If you will indulge me one more question, do you have a view based on you long experience and trials of the optimal (in terms of sound /tone you would be looking for) string tensions for say a 29" scale length baritone in each of the following steps down: D-D, C-C, B-B and A-A?

I believe and respect your belief in what strings make your guitars sound best and am not trying for conversion. I am just really stating an alternative view on a very interesting subject area. That's the beauty of guitar making - room for all beliefs and great choice for customers.

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I haven't built any 'real' baritones yet: the closest I've come is a recent 'second Tenor' for Ken Bonfield, with a 710mm (27.9") scale that he tunes C-C, although it was designed to go D-D with his normal medium gauge Thomastics. He has had it as low as B-B, and says it sounds OK, uses it for a bunch of different 'odd' tunings, and has also played it capoed as high as the 5th fret(!) successfully. Sometimes I get lucky....

One thing I learned when I made harps is that the longer the string is the tighter it has to be to preserve the same feel. Harp makers pay some attention to the ratio of T/L, and if the units are pounds and inches, the rule of thumb is not to go above a T/L of about 3 (iirc) or below 1. A short, fat string will act a lot like a bar, with the stiffness pushing the overtones 'way out of 'harmonic' territory, and a T/L below 1#/inch tends to feel slack on a harp. Guitars usually live in the low range of T/L, but it's something to pay attention to. On Ken's guitar we actually moved the gauge up just a notch from what he usually uses to begin with, and the feel was not too bad. Then, as usual, he started to play around with the strings.

There are two problems with getting a good sound, IMO: dropping the 'main air' pitch enough, and getting enough power off the top in the midrange for good balance. It's not as hard to do if you aren't worried too much about acoustic volume: cutting down on the soundhole size drops the 'main air' pitch pretty well, at the expense of some power in the low range. This also helps (a little) to drop the 'man top' pitch, but that's not so important so long as the top is light enough to drive pretty well off resonance. Kens' guitar is a 16" Small Jumbo, with a soundhole about the size of a classical, so the 'main air' resonance is a little below F#. This is a tad on the high side for the C-C tuning, but not too bad for the design spec of D-D. The 'main top' pitch is just above F#, again, a tad high, but not too bad. Maybe I should have gone to a full 17" Jumbo. OTOH, Ed Gerhardt tried it out, and said it had much better bass balance than most baris he's tried. It's not very loud acoustically, though.

Ken will be bringing it up to Montreal for the show, and maybe Dave would be able to comment on it then, if he promises to be nice.....

Al, is the T tension and L Scale length? If that is the case, then all of the baritone gauging and scale lengths that I'm aware of have tensions above 1, but below 2. David White's gauging is mostly above 1, but the B and E strings are below 1. The question I have is what do you feel is the correlation, if any, between the harp maker's rule of thumb and your typical guitar, and in particular, longer scale lengths and fatter wire?

Dave, the D'Addario EXP23 is designed for a 29" scale. Their calculations have it right about 230 lbs. of tensioin on B-B tuning.
I use them on 28.675" and they really do sound nice.

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy