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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:40 am 
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I've been thinking about stiff vs. flexible back again lately. Rather than discussing which you prefer, what are some characteristics of both that you've seen?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:45 am 
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Well, I have no way to prove it, but i've found the stiff ones to be stiff, and the flexible ones were, without fail, flexible. Just amazing....

:?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:50 am 
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I think the question is in relation to how the back works. I find if too flexible the back will eat up the volume of the instrument. What I think is happening is amiss phase in the air movement in the chamber. sort of like the back is absorbing the force of the top.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:15 pm 
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lol, nice, Mario. And Michael, that's interesting too.

I'm getting ready to brace a back, and I'm experimenting with carbon fiber on this guitar ala Rick Turner. Not sure if I want to line the back strip with the carbon fiber or not. I know Rick's guitars project like crazy.

When we're talking about the back's stiffness, is it a volume discussion, or are there tonal considerations? I'm starting from zero on my understanding of this.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:15 pm 
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Current thinking around here seems to be along these lines, if I'm not mistaken. Stiff backs act as a reflector, helping projection, and are not overly affected by damping, such as resting against the player's belly if he or she is standing. A looser back on the other hand, can work with or against the top. If the back is tuned in such a way that, after the guitar is done, its resonant frequency is a half-step or so from the top (with the top preferably the lower of the two), the two can act together to some degree, giving more output in the lower pitches. But if the top and back are too close in their resonant frequencies, chances of wolf notes are greater. Also, a looser back is affected by damping from the player's body.

Alan Carruth is of course, the go-to guy on the subject. Maybe he'll get in on this.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:43 pm 
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With the tail piece, isn't the top freer to vibrate?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:17 pm 
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What Burbank said.

Think about it this way: the top is the part of the guitar that's actually getting driven by the strings. Sure, they push on the neck some, too, but the neck is so stiff and heavy that it's not going to move nearly as much as the top. We make the top light, and _just_ stiff enough, so that it can move as much as possible, and produce sound.

The sound comes off both surfaces of the top: inside and outside the guitar. If the box were not enclosed the sound from the two surfaces would tend to cancel out, since the air could just sneak around the edges and fill in, instead of making noise. A guitar with no sides would probably have lousy efficiency, like a piano.

Some of the air vibration inside the box is communicated to the outside world via the soundhole. One function of the hole is to introduce a phase delay so that the sound coming off the top and out of the hole will be in phase at some pitch. We call this the 'main top' resonant mode, often around the open G string pitch.

About an octave down from that is what we call the 'main air' mode, where the sound coming out of the hole and the sound coming off the top are out of phase. If the top is the only wood part that's moving the two will tend to cancel out at that pitch, just like the situation you get with no box at all. _Any_ movement of the back and sides at that pitch will tend to give a net flow through the hole, and some sound production at the low end. So, the main benefit of a flexible back is probably in the low end response. Guitars with light, flexible backs tend to have a lot of low-end 'punch' because the back can really get into the act down there.

But when you come down to it, the back isn't nearly as good a 'loudspeaker' as the top. It usually weighs more than the top, for one thing, so a given amount of energy put into the back will get you a smaller amplitude of vibration that you would get from the top. Besides, it's pointed in the wrong direction: toward your gut, rather than the audience's ears.

On the plus side, that added weight means the back can be a good 'flywheel' once it gets going, storing sound energy and feeding it back into the air and body. Most of the prefered back woods have really low damping, so thay can ring for a long time.

Still, once you get past the 'main back' resonant mode, most of its resonances are losers, stealing sound from the top and wasting it. All of the higher order modes have more than one vibrating area, after all, and those tend to cancel each other out.

If you look at the output of a guitar that's been driven with some sort of a signal that has the same amount of energy at all frequencies, you'll see that most of the back resonant pitches show up as dips in the spectrum. It turns out that's not all bad. It's the pattern of peaks and dips in the spectrum at higher frequencies that seems to make the sound 'interesting'. You'd prefer to make peaks, by getting the top to be more active, but 'the back we will always have with us', and if a few dips make it sound better, what the heck. Ovations don't have any back resonances to speak of, so there's a reference to the ultimate 'stiff' back sound. You just don't want too many dips in the spectrum, nor do you want them to be too spread out in frequency. That's another good reason to use a back material that 'rings' nicely when tapped: the low losses make those back resonances have narrow bandwidths, so they only steal energy from the top at certain pitches.

As always, there's no one 'best' way to get a 'good' sound out of a guitar, just a lot of good ways. Light backs and heavy backs can both work if you get the rest of the instrument to do what you want. And, as always, I'll say that the whole thing is probably a lot more complicated in detail, so that there will be times when this sort of simple explanation falls down. It keeps things interesting.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:03 pm 
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Great posts Pat and Al! [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:42 pm 
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I find that the stiff back makes for a kind of cardioid pattern in projection...putting more of the total energy out forward whereas a more flexible back makes the guitar more omnidirectional. The stiff back makes for a guitar that is loud to the audience, and the more flexible gives more to the player. Both are perfectly valid, but I suspect that the flexi-backed instruments may be easier to sell as they are more impressive to the prospective client...not that I build that way at this time!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Alan Carruth wrote:
A guitar with no sides would probably have lousy efficiency, like a piano.



Funny you should mention that, Al. I've often thought about how a grand piano has no "back" and, therefore, no "box". It's just a soundboard, open to the air above and below. Lousy efficiency, really? I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but the darn thing sure is loud! And responsive over a very wide frequency range...

I would imagine there's been a lot written about the acoustics of pianos. I haven't read any of it...

(Having done some piano restoration work, I know a fair amount about how they're made and how they work, mechanically, but not much about how they work acoustically, other than the basics of string behavior.)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:10 am 
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These responses are extremely helpful, especially the cardioid/omni comparison. Thanks everyone.

Right now I'm beginning an Indian Rosewood/Redwood OM'ish type guitar. It's an in-home instrument, so I'm going to keep the carbon fiber laminated to the linings to keep with the rigid rim assembly, but I might not laminate the back strip. Or perhaps laminate the back strip and go with narrower braces. I want to try to find a happy medium that still gives me a structure that can be used for the neck supports.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:53 am 
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Hesh wrote:
Great posts Pat and Al!
Great posts Pat and Al! [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]


I'm with Hesh. Thanks once again Al for taking the time to post such thoughtful and informative responses. Much appreciated.

Craig.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:46 am 
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I started out in the flexible back camp but over recent years I've moved emphasis and now build stiff, X-braced backs and much prefer the result (it could just be that I'm getting better at making guitars though). I like the clarity and separation that the stiffer back seems to give. Rick's right about the direction response, but simply adding a soundport re-involves the player. With the steel string back held fairly firmly to the players gut, the flexible back is damped anyway, so you might as well make it into a stiffer reflector.

With the different playing position of the classical, well that is another story.

I also make the equivalent of the rennaisance Ovation, the lute, which must be the ultimate stiff back.

Colin

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:07 pm 
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I do put in side ports with my stiff backed guitars for exactly the reason Colin indicates.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:08 pm 
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Todd Rose wrote:
" Lousy efficiency, really? I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but the darn thing sure is loud! "

Hand grenades are loud, but they are inefficient fly swatters.

Although I can't recall all of the references offhand, my recollection is that the guitar is actually one of the _most_ efficient instruments, in terms of turning input energy into sound. It has to be, considering how little energy we can put in! All of the loud instruments, like the violin and piano, get that volume by brute force. The bow feeds many times as much energy into a fiddle as we can by plucking a string: notice how soft a violin is when played 'pizzicato'. According to the reference I have handy (Fletcher and Rossing, 'The Physics of Musical Instruments') a concert grand piano has 243 strings, with as much as 200# of tension per string, and a total tension of over twenty tons. These are struck in groups of two or three. Imagine how much sound you could get out of a 12-string guitar if you could use strings with as much tension as those on a piano? Now try to find somebody who could fret the thing! Or lift it! I read in another place that pianists often suffer from back problems due to the effort they put into playing.

F&R do give some readings on the efficiency of brass instruments. The input power ranges from 30mW to as much as 10W. The upper limit on French horns is set by the blood pressure of the player: blowing harder cuts off the circulation to the brain. Anyway, the output power runs from less than 1mW to a few hundred mW. There is some disagreement about the overall efficiency, but could be as low as .1%.

Again, the very efficiency of the guitar is one thing that makes it so difficult to improve. Iirc, in some ranges a guitar turns as much as 15% of the input energy into sound, and the overall efficiency is said to be about 5%. That seems terrible, but compare it to the figures for the louder French horn. Since the players refuse to work any harder than they do, by using higher string tension, higher action, or longer strings, we're stuck fighting for tiny improvements in efficiency with things like 'lattice' or 'sandwich' tops, and so on.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Very enlightening, Al. Thanks.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:00 am 
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Indeed, very interesting thread!

On my second guitar, the one I'm holding in my avatar, I notice a big difference if I'm playing standing up or seated. I'm not sure I like such a marked difference...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:32 pm 
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If you're standing, the guitar is probably being smashed against your belly. Seated it's more free to vibrate. I know that Al has written that coupling of the back to a belly is not significant, but I don't see how it can be anything other than a case of coupling a vibration damper...a nice layer of fat and muscle...to the back. The analogy would be damping the non-struck head of a drum...which many drummers do with significant results.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:37 pm 
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Rick Turner wrote:
If you're standing, the guitar is probably being smashed against your belly. Seated it's more free to vibrate. I know that Al has written that coupling of the back to a belly is not significant, but I don't see how it can be anything other than a case of coupling a vibration damper...a nice layer of fat and muscle...to the back. The analogy would be damping the non-struck head of a drum...which many drummers do with significant results.


I totally agree Rick, I play both steel string and classical sitting down a lot, but of course the playing positions differ. The steel string is held much closer to the body, and I found that with the more flexible back the guitar just lost its edge, undoubtedly due to the damping effect of my slim and perfectly formed stomach. That's one reason I went to a stiff X-braced back on the steel string and I have to say I hear a definite improvement. With the classical position the back is not damped to the same degree and the normal more flexible back is still my preference. Though some other classical builders, with their laminated or even carved backs, are now moving the way of a stiff back.

Colin

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:04 pm 
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What is stopping a flexible back being held tightly against someone's belly from acting like a stiff back? And for those of you who make the stiff back, are you keeping track of the difference between the top frequency and the back or is it more that lighter and stiffer is always better?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:14 pm 
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Rick wrote:
"I know that Al has written that coupling of the back to a belly is not significant, but I don't see how it can be anything other than a case of coupling a vibration damper...a nice layer of fat and muscle...to the back. "

I don't say it's not significant: it does alter the sound of the guitar. However, it doesn't seem to change the basic pitch of the 'main back' resonant mode so much as damp it out a lot. The mode is still there, and it still has some effect in dropping the 'main air' pitch. Of course the guitar works differently when you hold it in different ways: I've known some players who used those changes to good effect in performance.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Al, I understand.

Blegeyt, the issue is that a flexible back coupled to a viscous damper...your body...will suck out energy, not reflect it.

I've made some backs so stiff that I could stand on them, and the guitars kick a lot of sound out.


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