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I'm off to Tasmania on Tuesday, and one of the things I'll be doing is investigating the whole guitar wood scene a bit. I know there's a lot of interest in major "bling" wood from there...the curly Tasmanian blackwood and the tiger myrtle...but I don't believe a sustainable business can be built with saw mills if we only buy the most outrageous wood from them. Hence I'm looking for plain old great tone wood...stuff that's a good substitute for mahogany, maple, and Indian rosewood. That's where the future is even as the flash stuff gets the attention. For instance, the plainest blackwood I've seen is still more interesting than 99.9% of the mahogany I've ever seen, and being harder it's a bit more like Indian rosewood in tone. The plain Tassie myrtle (bearing no relationship to our West Coast myrtle) looks very much like black cherry, and seems to be a beautiful tone wood based on a couple of instruments I've seen including an A style mandolin by Peter Coombes.

I'm trying to set up resawing of sets over there. This has advantages for both sides of the Pacific...it becomes a " value added" feature that puts Tasmanians to work over there, and it means that less future scrap and sawdust is being shipped trans-Pacific. It's a win-win. We're looking at the possibility of sending a couple of Baker resaws over to do really efficient, thin kerf sawing to maximize yield.

Sounds very interesting Rick. Please keep us informed as you acquire more specifics. Enjoy your trip.

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Simon

Enjoy!!

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

That is assured as the primary reason for the trip is to see my girlfriend...

Enjoy the summer weather!

Rick, are you going to be investigating a number of the offerings like Gidgee, Jarrah, Cheesewood, et al? Tim Spittle and others recommend these woods for bindings, bridges, fretboards, etc. They have a number of interesting species that won't necessarily make backs/sides but should perform beautifully in these supporting roles.
I confess a fascination with names like Wandoo...Mulga...Minnerichi.
I really envy you, and the prospecting ahead. I hope the "girlfriend" doesn't become too jealous.

Steve

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From Nacogdoches...the oldest town in Texas.

http://www.stephenkinnaird.com

Be sure to look at the sheoak also. I bought an awesome set of this from Tim a while back and am waiting to build with it. Beautiful wood!

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Reguards,

Ken H

I'm looking at everything. My contact there, Bob MacMillan, is very hip to the benefits of quarter-sawing, and he's just soaked up everything I've had to say about this whole subject. I'm very keen to make this work for the Tasmanians, too, and that's why I want to set up a resawing operation down there at one or more of the independent sawmills. We should be able to get great wood ("timber" in Aussie-speak) right at the sawmill, scoot it over to the resaw area, figure out how to get the most efficient use of the billets by having guitar templates right there, then saw, sticker, and at least initially air dry the slices on site.

Some of the guitar sets I've seen come over from India should be illegal just on the basis of incredible waste. There's no reason for guitar backs to be coming through at nearly 1/4" in thickness. The problem is that few mills have even consulting guitar makers available to monitor what they're doing. With the way I've set up my own resawing, I know that I can get a good 20% higher yield than any off-shore mill gets that I've seen wood from.

We've talked about even setting up to join and rough sand backs down there, and once again, the advantages are reasonably priced Tassie labor and sending over nearly finished parts that weigh a lot less and take up less space in a container.

As I said, my main interest right now is in the more "normal" and less figured wood, not that I don't like the beautiful stuff, but rather because I know that if I can help set up markets for the plain stuff, we'll have plenty of figured wood coming our way. If you want to do well in this kind of business, you have to think not only like a guitar maker, but also like a lumber-jack and saw miller. They can't live off of us just skimming the cream off the top, and we piss them off with our picky-picky nonsense. Hence I want to help market plain old wonderful alternative tone wood, and probably many of you won't care. You're small shop luthiers, and for the most part, you can't afford to make plain guitars. So I'm looking first to serve customers who want nice alternatives to mahogany and plain old Indian rosewood, not those who want zoot and bling and the next best thing to Brazilian rosewood. There will be time for that later.

This sounds really interesting. At the very least to be able to source alternatives to traditional tonewoods from a developed nation where the logging industry has more accountability and a greater long-term approach (of course that's not to say that it's exactly perfect here) will surely yield greater stability and sustainability for guitar makers/manufacturers.

I really like the idea of approaching it from a large-scale perspective; the idea of going after volume seems logical to create an operation that has economies of scale and in turn, enough timber ("wood" in Yank-speak I guess ) going through that there's bound to be a percentage of great stuff that'll trickle down to us. For Australian builders we would then be in a position where the more we can source locally, the less we have to import.

You may find some of the Queensland timbers are valuable as alternatives to the traditionals; check out Qld Maple or Walnut if you get a chance.

Good luck with the search... I hope something feasible comes out of it.

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Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com

Rick, as this new part of the world's wood supply opens up, is there adequate talk of replanting and sustainability, so that Tasmania doesn't become Madagascar?

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I like how you're thinking, Rick.

Rick, Small builders can benefit from more options as well. Not every guitar needs to be about crazy figure. A great tonewood that is redily available and accepted can help to lower the cost of some builders guitars. It allows folks to get a custom guitar that can sound just as good as others with the crazy hight dollar wod. Builders can sell more guitars. It's a win-win! Also, beginner builders can cut their teeth on more affordable woods. Variety man, That's what it's all about.

yet again Rick raises a rude gesture at the rest of the business and does something off the wall.

yet again it makes a LOT of sense.

I like the look of bling, yes, but given the choice of a plain set of B&S wood that bends & works easily for $120 delivered and a set of mega bling wood that'll crack as soon as I try to bend it for $500 delivered?

Let us know when you're taking orders Rick, I'm in the que already.

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

Is this going to be for your own guitarbuilding company, or for selling as luthier supplies to other builders?

I'm planning to stock up my supplies for the purpose of having well seasoned wood by the time I get to it. Bling doesn't matter, as long as the price is right.

Frankly, after having many discussions with pro luthiers about how cheaply they source their tonewood, (It was not easy, these thing are usually secret!) I am fed up with being ripped off as an ametuer builder.

I want to echo Mario's comment. Have a great time, too!

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

A few comments...

Tasmania and a lot of Australia has already been raped of fine timber. There's a 1.5 billion dollar (yes, the figure it correct) paper pulp mill that's just about to be approved for construction in Northern Tasmania. Can you think of any lower use for trees than indiscriminate clear cutting and grinding up for toilet paper? Then the thousands of acres are replanted with one species, blue gum eucalyptus, because it grows so fast. But wait! There are little critters that like to come in and eat the tender young gum trees...wallabies, rabbits, wombats, etc. How do you control them? Poison laced carrots...by the tens of thousands of pounds. The poison is called "1080", and it's nasty stuff.

So yes, I'm concerned with the long term, and I'd love to set up a "cut a tree, plant two" program there and encourage polyculture replanting. I have a lot of homework to do, a lot of people to talk to, and I have to be very careful not to step on any toes over there. I'll be asking a lot of questions and listening a lot. I need to respect the economic needs of the folks there and hopefully what I'll be helping do there will provide a few more jobs and make better use of sustainable resources. There's a lot of wood there, and I think a great deal of it should prove good for guitars.

As for pricing and feeling ripped off, I think you have to understand that amateur luthiers buying a few sets at a time and being able to see pictures on line is an incredibly expensive way to buy wood. It's expensive because it costs the seller a lot to present it that way, package it that way, etc. You are not getting ripped off paying the prices charged by all the familiar suppliers. If you want great prices on wood, then you should learn to buy wood the way guitar factories do...by the hundreds or thousands of sets sight unseen. Also, many pro luthiers have put years into developing sources and also an eye for bargains. Think, for instance, about how Jeff Traugott got his incredible stash of old growth, cut in the 1930s Bz...yes, he got it for a good price. He also had to travel to Kentucky to see the wood, and he refinanced his house to buy it all. Are you ready to do that?

I'm not sure that I want to be in the retail wood sales business...and that's what it is if you're selling fewer than a couple of dozen sets at a time. I'm hoping to be more of a consultant on sawing and drying and broker working in larger multiples of sets. I don't have time to put photos up on the Internet and deal with individual sets of wood. Frankly, I'd rather have access to the stuff myself and then work with one or more of the usual suspects who supply you with wood. I'll be a link between here and there, not the source here.

sadly, all that makes sense.......

I fully appreciate the bulk buying thing. If Taylor want 10,000 sets of Jarrah they're gonna get a discount.

still, if I'm buying from Stewmac or LMI, I see the pics on the site which are representative of the species, and they aren't the ACTUAL sets that I'm buying.

I'd certainly trust you to send me decent plain wood to build with......

If you were to employ someone there to handle the mailing, I bet you'd pay his/her wages easily, as the hobby guitar building world is well aware of the brand "Rick Turner" through your presence on fora such as these, and you have a reputation of speaking wisdom from a position of EARNED respect, (and accepting no garbage in return), and if your name was on it...........

Still, you have more fingers in more pies than Sweeny Todd already!!

I guess there are only so many hours in each day

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My soundclick xx luthier blog xx luthier soundclick

If you weren't leaving so soon, Rick, I would encourage you to read Jarad Diamond's newish book, "Collapse." It firmly documents the link between bad environmental policy and the collapse of numerous cultures, countries and areas and what we should learn from that. Well researched and well written.

But from what you are saying, it might be preaching to the choir. Nevertheless, it was an eye opener for me, and I have an undergrad degree in Environmental Science... There, I just outed myself.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Some wood dealers do post pictures of the exact sets you can buy...and you're paying for that privilege and you're not getting ripped off; you are paying not for wood, but for time. Given the modest cost of wood for guitars relative to what you should be charging, that should be just fine. But you should not resent the pros or small factories or large factories who buy in quantity and buy sight unseen and have to reject piles of wood to get the right price. Some of us who buy in relatively small quantities buy often enough to get discounts based on a projected year's worth of business, too.

Welcome to the real world of guitar woods.

Re. the environmental stuff...it always comes down to greedy folks wanting to get theirs now and screw the future.

Agreed on all counts, Rick.

All the best, I hope your plans succeed.

I read the thread on the Aussie forum about how Tasmanian forests are being pillaged for the sake of loo roll and other disposable products.

You'll find the whole wood merchandising business an incredibly fascinating one. A pal of mine has recently got into the business himself after, approaching it from an environmental foundation within forest management and sustainability, and it's pretty eye opening to say the least.


Some luthier suppliers still charge the same prices (or higher) regardless of internet presence, hosting costs, pretty pictures...

Despite whinging about the cost of hardwood these days, I would love to sponsor respectable replanting schemes.

"Re. the environmental stuff...it always comes down to greedy folks wanting to get theirs now and screw the future."

If only it were that simple.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

Best of luck Rick, hope you can make a difference down under. Check out the Queensland Walnut, I love this stuff. Graham Mcdonald sent me some samples and I used it on the peghead of a bouzouki I built. This has a little flame to it, but it is very nice wood, and easy to work with. Please let us know which woods you were impressed by the most upon return.

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Tracy
http://www.luthiersuppliers.com

Rick I'm sure as you get into it and start researching things and making contacts you'll find plenty of likeminded individuals (in regards to sustainable forestry practices) around Tasmania who have a wealth of local and technical knowledge. I'd also wonder if getting into contact with Maton and Cole Clark would possibly lead somewhere as each of these companies would have a lot to gain and perhaps even have affiliated sawmills in Tasmania that could be used as starting points in getting this going -- if they're willing to share.

The images in the media here are that there are two sides to the logging industry argument in Tasmania: the evil companies that pillage the old-growth forests and pollute the environment, and the extremist hippies who just don't like anything, neither of which the average person can get behind. There's much more to it and there's no question that there's room for sustainable old-growth logging operations in Tasmania, but if a viable hardwood industry -- guitar-related or not -- isn't created within the next few years then the opportunities steadily diminish as the old-growth is replaced with plantation.

One thing I've always found fascinating about it all is that about 20 years ago there was a Cousteau documentary dealing with the logging industry in Tasmania. It's fascinating watching because absolutely nothing has changed -- the arguments from each side were exactly the same then as now.

I commend in particular the idea of doing the joining etc. down there. It's these kinds of value-adding steps that are needed to make this a viable alternative to woodchips.

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Richard
http://www.guitarmaker.com

I applaud your efforts to train and educate the sawmill guys.

I am a sawmill owner. I am also a senior member of a sawmill related forum and I visit there every day. I have tried to educate sawmill owners as to the added price they can get for sawing in ways that luthiers want to buy wood, and have got nothing but grief over it. It is different than any way they have ever sawn wood, and because of this they balk at the idea of sawing for vertical grained wood (quarter sawing). If you can educate them and make them realize it is worth their added efforts, then I will sing your praises. I have failed miserably at it.

I might add that I have bought pallet loads of wood that were "custom sawn" just for me and paid dearly for it. Some of these guys are beginning to get the idea through their thick skulls that this is a large market to tap. Instead of selling their wood at $1.50/ borad foot, then can make it $10/board foot if they cater to the luthiers.

Some just dont get it at all....some do. Good luck on your trip!

If you need me to hook you up with some sawmill owners to talk to in Australia, let me know. I have several contacts down under.

By the way, I like the new Baker resaws. If I had one, I would want the runaround table for it though.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Thanks, Ken. Agreed on the return conveyor; I didn't get one for my saw, but for day in day out sawing I would. I'd also probably get the ABX machine where the conveyor stays put and the head rig moves up and down. That keeps other conveyors at the same height no matter what you're doing. What I found is that even at very slow feed speeds, the saw can keep three guys hopping busy. It's not about the sawing of the wood, it's about the handling.

Worst case, every log yields at least two or three more or less vertical grain flitches. If we can get those set aside, we're ahead of the game, but of course I'd like the saw mill sawyer to take the time to cut and turn, cut and turn.

I've already got interest for plain blackwood for ukes to be made in Viet Nam for an Aussie company, so the concept is taking hold.

I may very well ask for some contacts down the line, Ken. I'm going to be busy enough at first just in Tasmania, but if that goes well, then we'll see.