Official Luthiers Forum!

JJ I hope you know that my post was not meant to be critical of you comment. Because in a tutelage environment I would agree.

However most of the first timer build members that post here are not in a tutelage situation. They are out in their garage building their first fine woodworking project.

Though I build for profit I am not ready to call my self a pro (as in top of my craft). In fact every time I begin to think I have really got this down My maker will through a piece of humble pie on my plate.

I just believe that a new very green builder learns more achieved success than from hard learned lessons. However there is a time and place for those hard learned lessons.

I think a first build for a learn it yourself'er should be an invitation to the craft. An appetizer if you will, to tease the taste buds. It should give a prime example of what will be required, but not present overwhelming challenges.

But of course I did not take any of my own advise. I dove straight for the deep end and learned to swim to avoid sinking. Sometime I still have to grab for the edge of the pool and catch my breath

Yeah, some people will never learn to swim until they think they are going to drown.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=hblair] .......is titebond just the easiest most sure fire way for a first timer?.....[/QUOTE]
Yes.

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

Michael...My comments are not for MOST first-time builders. SOME will have similar approaches to life, learning, risk-taking, etc. as me (poor guys) and know that there are equally acceptable alternatives.

Hesh...I would hope you know me well enough to know that I don't need to "stick out my chest to show my chops". I have more to learn than most on this forum. For those who may see me this way and choose to ignore my intent, I'll leave the mistletoe hanging from my coat tail for them! <sigh>

I offer my experience as well as objective data for others to evaluate. If most folks continue to insist that beginners are incapable of using HHG then I'll continue to offer my experience and contradict conventional wisdom.

I think we have beaten the dead horse once again. Can we just drag him off to the rendering plant so that we can produce more HHG!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Dave mon I am not going to debate the sonic merits of HHG use with you or anyone else for that matter because, as indicated in prior postings, I agree with you.  I think that I hear a difference too.  And I love the stuff and use it often in my own guitars.

But I am also aware that I may be nuts.........

I hear differences in different bridge pin materials too - but again I cannot be sure that this is not yet another example of psychoacoustics.....

I will offer this though - although Lance Armstrong may be able to tell which helmet is 1-5% more aerodynamically efficient I seriously doubt that I could tell which one is......

I also agree with you that some beginners are going to be more comfortable biting off more to learn, and more to possibly fail with too, right off the bat.  So as JJ indicates everyone should do as they please - always!

But given all the variables, not knowing a specific new builder's comfort levels, experience, talent, or even things like economics, local availability or products, assistance available to them, and more - isn't a $5 bottle of Titebond a pretty safe bet?

There is a commercial running here in the states where a surgeon attempts to guide a patient through performing an operation on himself - over the phone.......  True some folks might be able to pull this off..... but offering solutions that depend on this degree of proficiency, guts, what ever you wish to call it really in my view are not targeted solutions for the sweet spot of the forum when a beginner asks a question.

Perhaps our answers should be less of what could be done, in certain circumstances and for certain individuals and more of what a best practice/bet for any given newb would be?

Of all the kit manufactures including Martin, LMI, John Hall, Stew-Mac they all recommend Titebond or LMI.  I wonder why.........  The answer clearly is that these companies who deal with more first time builders then we do have had better success promoting the use of Titebond/LMI for first time builders.

Lastly - back to this myth question or more rightly put how often are we fooling ourselves here and believing what we wish to believe.

I have two recently completed OMs.  Both were built identically to each other, braced exactly alike, same glue(s) used in the same locations.

I asked three people independent of each other to tell me if they can hear a difference in the two guitars.  The only variable, which I would consider to be huge, was the woods used.

One person heard no difference.  The second person "may" hear a difference.  And the third person heard a HUGE difference.

Go figure...... 

[QUOTE=Hesh] I have two recently completed OMs.  Both were built identically to each other, braced exactly alike, same glue(s) used in the same locations.I asked three people independent of each other to tell me if they can hear a difference in the two guitars.  The only variable, which I would consider to be huge, was the woods used.One person heard no difference.  The second person "may" hear a difference.  And the third person heard a HUGE difference.Go figure...... 
[/QUOTE]

Hesh mon,

I suspect that the other variable was three different people playing the guitars. We provide the potential but the real "tone" comes from a players fingers. Was the first player Beethoven

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I've used LMI white and LV fish on my first.  I started with HHG but the overpriced pot I purshased seems to hold its temp too high, about 156-8deg.  The glue was way too runny to use even at a thick mix.  I havent spent the time to sort it out yet.

 

Fish glue offers an open time of an hour if I remember the bottle right, but in turn calls for 12 hours of clamp time.  I havent reallt tested it out to see if I can get away with a shorter time.  I just leave it overnight.

I have made a mock bridge glueup test, Mad Rose with spruce and it ripped the spruce away only after 1 hour or maybe less of clamping. But it was good clamping.  If the clamping is weak and you have a thick glue line, a long tme is requiered for it to compeltely get dry.

So I didn't want to risk and waited from 8-10h for non critical stuff, and at least 12h for braces, back, fingerboard etc.

The gluepot should be easily modified by adding variable resistance. I am sure some of the folks here know exactly how to do it.

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Build log

Someone already made the same comment I was going to make, get all the glues you think you'd like to try and practice with them.

All the glues you've mentioned will work just fine, which is better than the other is subjective at best. Everyone has their preference.

In reality, use what ever glue you feel comfortable with, as I said they will all work just fine.

Your first guitar will most likely be way over braced so "hearing" any difference due to the glue you use will be most likely impossible.

Also, you'll be so amazed that you've built something that sounds like a guitar, it really won't matter to much what glue you used.

Use what ever you feel comfortable with and get building. If you feel comfortable with HHG (which isn't really hard to use) than use that. If you're comfortable with fish glue, use that etc...

Heck, I think it was Kevin G. who built a guitar using only cyanoacrylate for an entire guitar, still holding up strong he says.

Not one person here is absolutely correct, including me.

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"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] [QUOTE=Hesh] Even some of the top Luthiers use Titebond today.
[/QUOTE]

True...but ALL of the top builders from 75 years ago used HHG.

...and what is it about the sound of those old guitars that captivates builders today? It could be in the woods that were used...it could be the age factor...it could be the glues that were used. But it's probably a result of a combination of a lot of those as well as other factors. Even Martin has now decided to produce a specialty line using HHG...a marketing ploy for sure.

I just don't know why the first approach is always to scare the begeebers out of a 1st time builder into avoiding a major historically important and high quality glue that has an important place in the history of guitar building.

So if it is considered by many to be the best glue for guitar building, I'll say it's also the best glue for a first guitar as well. [/QUOTE]

The sound of those vintage guitars is no doubt because they used hide glue. It's the only glue that will pick up the "music of the spheres," due to its glassy, crystalline qualities. Besides, it's always a safe bet that whatever methods were in use 75 years ago are better than the ones in use now.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

Actually they likely have a voltage pot already in the circuitry.

Hesh said: "There is a commercial running here in the states where a surgeon
attempts to guide a patient through performing an operation on himself
- over the phone.......  True some folks might be able to pull this
off..... but offering solutions that depend on this degree of
proficiency, guts, what ever you wish to call it really in my view are
not targeted solutions for the sweet spot of the forum when a beginner
asks a question."

I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] [QUOTE=Hesh] Even some of the top Luthiers use Titebond today.
[/QUOTE]

True...but ALL of the top builders from 75 years ago used HHG.

...and what is it about the sound of those old guitars that captivates builders today? It could be in the woods that were used...it could be the age factor...it could be the glues that were used. But it's probably a result of a combination of a lot of those as well as other factors. Even Martin has now decided to produce a specialty line using HHG...a marketing ploy for sure.

I just don't know why the first approach is always to scare the begeebers out of a 1st time builder into avoiding a major historically important and high quality glue that has an important place in the history of guitar building.

So if it is considered by many to be the best glue for guitar building, I'll say it's also the best glue for a first guitar as well. [/QUOTE]
That is true but if they had titebond or something similar you could bet the majority of them would switch. They used HHG because there was no other option.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

So you see Heath buddy it's easy and everyone agrees on what you should do.  Welcome to the insanity of guitar building.

Has anyone tried the epoxy paste stuff?  Probably has too large a damping factor when used for braces.  You know the stuff you can get 6 rolls for 19.95 because they triple the offer.  Works for everything! 

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

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sweat the small stuff.

I just finished my first and used Titebond because I ordered some HHG but when I opened the package it must of been bad, all dried out and crystalized so I threw it out. So I ordered more, sure enough this stuff was bad too. Stick with Titebond.

By the way, who do you guys source HHG from?

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Kurt Thomas

"There's a first time for everything even if you do it by mistake."

[QUOTE=hblair]

this place is a zoo. you guys crack me up.

[/QUOTE]

It is interesting to see what topics have a tendency to turn into heated debates.

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53% of all statistics are made up on the spot
http://driftwoodguitars.blogspot.com/

It's supposed to look like that! It dissolves in water and magically takes on the consistency of glue. I buy mine from LMI.

Perhaps you should send me all of your remaining granules where it will be put to good use.

You're doing exactly the right thing in sticking with Titebond.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=KThomas]

I just finished my first and used Titebond because I ordered some HHG but when I opened the package it must of been bad, all dried out and crystalized so I threw it out. So I ordered more, sure enough this stuff was bad too. Stick with Titebond.

By the way, who do you guys source HHG from?

[/QUOTE]
Yeah mine must of been bad too. When i heated it up it had this terrible odor like something dead. Go figure. That why on my next guitar i'm just gonna stick to the drywall screws.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

[QUOTE=KThomas]

I just finished my first and used Titebond because I ordered some HHG but when I opened the package it must of been bad, all dried out and crystalized so I threw it out. So I ordered more, sure enough this stuff was bad too. Stick with Titebond.

By the way, who do you guys source HHG from?

[/QUOTE]
Yeah mine must of been bad too. When i heated it up it had this terrible odor like something dead. Go figure. That why on my next guitar i'm just gonna stick to the drywall screws.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

JJ, I think he was kidding...   (you were kidding, right?)    

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Wayne buddy I think that the reason that this "discussion" got "interesting" is that some HHG users store it in the bathroom and mistake it for Preparation H at times.........  You can also use it to hang mistletoe from your rear end......

JJ I respectfully disagree and think that everyone should use HHG for everything......  I just fed it to my dog and I sure hope his 101F body temp is enough to permit this stuff to pass tomorrow..........

BTW you can eat HHG if you chose to do so. A 50/50 mix of HHG and dijon mustard makes an excellent glaze for sauteed in peanut oil and extra virgin olive oil free range chicken breast garnished with  bias cut scallions (the green part) and lightly sprinkled with  wheat  germ.

Kurt was by chance the HHG that you bought the bottled stuff that is a liquid - that stuff is not recommended.......

FWIW I mix the appropriate amount of LMI HHG crystals with the appropriate amount of distilled water, heat to 140ish but do not shake the bottle because undissolved crystals will clog the bottle.  I let it cool, put it in the fridge, and reheat and use the next day.  This extra day permits the crystals to completely dissolve and upon reheating it's ready to go.

What do you guys want to argue about next?

Arnt...I sure hope you are right!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com