Official Luthiers Forum!

Alright. I picked this little one up new years day. The size is 2 1/2 and the style is between a 22 and 24. Besides what is wrong I can not believe how good of condition it is in. The original bridge is missing(in a picture I got from the family from 1892 it was original) but no top cracks. There are two side cracks that are too small to take a picture of and that repair will be seamless and easy. There are two cracks running up the fingerboard from the bottom until the 12th fret. The neck also needs to be set.    Today I took off the replacement bridge which was pealing up, and carefully(not careful enough) took the neck off. I heated the fingerboard loose, but by the time steamed the neck a little of the fingerboard glued back on and stayed(it was cracked right next to it) I was really hoping to be able to get the neck off with fingerboard attached completely.      Here are some pictures and some questions. Pictures first.


Ok. I think I can attach the broken off piece and stabilize it. Would any of you do so and use the original fingerboard? Please opinions are a good thing here! I have all of teh original bar frets -2 also ready to go back home.  Also, the neck angle needs to be kicked back more, but the top is a little sunk, so it would play fine until after the twelfth fret. I am sort of at a loss what to do here, I could kick it back and shim underneath(which I dont want to do), kick it back and deal with the bad action after the twelfth, or again with the new fingerboard, I could taper that ever so slightly.  I would like to know what you might do with that, or if any of you have run into that. My guitar teachers 60s gibson has a sunken soundhole area also, but being 14 frets to the body it doesnt bother him too much.    Last of all, if anyone has dimensions for a Martin pyramid bridge of that era It would be wonderful. She is x braced with one(I forget the name) brace on the treble side that meets at the side and just above bridge plate. All the top braces are mitered into the kerfing, and on the bass side there is no signs of glue for that brace or notched out kerfing. The back is laminated onto spruce and is much like the guitar on the cover of the CF Martin and his guitars book. Except the rossette of mine is roped, and my perfling mosaic is not. Many opinion on what I might do would greatly be welcomed. Thanks - Adam

The spruce back lining indicates an early guitar. I'd venture to guess this is late 1850's and that the stamp on the back reads C.F. Martin New York (not & C0. New York). I could venture a better guess at the style with a picture of the sides and back....does it have side purflings? It might be a style 23 if not.

This is strictly a gut (nylon) string guitar so your neck angle should be calculated with that in mind.

The proper bridge size for a 2 1/2  is 13/16" wide by 5 13/16" long though you may have to modify this a bit to accomodate the footprint that you've been left with .  If it were me I would certainly try to save the original fretboard and anything else original to the guitar. It is also wise to go light on things like finish touch up etc. these things are old and should show it. I'm glad you have Phil Gura's book as it is an excellent source for information. I contributed quite a few of the photos included in it.

Best!

David LaPlante

 

Here is a pic of an old (a little chewed) original bridge which may help you to replicate one.

Thanks for your help. She is deffinatly an early one. It does have side
perflings underneith rosewood bindings. It was in one family until now. They
think that it was from 1839-1843. They gave me a photograph that was
taken in 1892 that had the instrument in original condition. I will post a few
more detailed pics tomorrow of binding/perfling rosette and tailstrip.
Thanks a bunch for your help and for the bridge info. - Adam

...another view...note the little Roman numeral impressed into the saddle slot, I think these were used to match the bridge to the guitar in the lot being built.

Just curious, how much is one of these, usually?  In battered but repairable condition. 

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Build log

An instrument such as this is worthy of a proper restoration. I would take it to TJ Thompson in Boston and have him do the work if it were mine. There's nobody out there better for restoring valuable vintage Martins. It won't be cheap, but he will preserve the integrity of the instrument and return a very playable and more valuable instrument to you. Something for you to think about...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Wow.  We'd love to see the original picture they gave you.

Thanks for sharing this.  How about a scan of a half tracing?

It would be fun to build one of these.  My grandparents married in 1893 so this vintage makes me think way back.  Good find.

I would echo Don's recommendations. This is a precious and historical instrument that deserves expert attention.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

As usual Don is right, this instrument needs an experienced historical instrument restorer to gently bring it back to playing condition while retaining as much original patina as possible.

I restore historical instruments for a number of museums and it is something that needs time put into the thought process for a while before any work is started. Rarely do I touch an instrument without having it sitting around for at least a couple of months so that I can plan and mentally rehearse each step of the process. And don't forget any restoration that is done should be completely reversible, so that any future generation can undo the work. Half of the problems I have restoring an old instrument is in reversing some past 'restorer's' mess.

Are you sure it needed a neck reset? I see very few gut strung instruments that the neck angle has changed enough to warrant it. Remember that the neck should have a slight forward tilt, not the backward tilt as seen on a modern steels string.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Before we get too carried away, "precious" here translates to about $3500. on the open market. I see a lot of these and they are indeed undervalued and of interest pretty much only to Martin aficionados. Ironically they are of little use to that group becuse as previously mentioned they are strictly for gut (or nylon) strings though when properly set up they can be quite charming . Sure, I agree that anything this old deserves "Museum" (I work at one) treatment, but unless someone has or is willing to put the money into it, it most likely won't happen and thus information sharing is the best way to prevent bad things from happening to these lovely old guitars.      

 I don't think we should assume that the poster does not have the skills or sensitivity to undertake a thoughtful job on this one .  

Best!

Great find and a very cool little vintage
Martin!

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

David, not everything can be reduced to monetary value, this is a fine instrument that has lasted for nearly 170 years and has earned the right to be properly treated. Many museum quality instruments may not be as valuable as a brand new one from many of the current builders in pure monetary terms, but should still be shown the greatest respect, for their historical value.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

There are not just 3 or 4 people in the world who can do an appropriate restoration on an old Martin. Adam is the best judge of his skills for this.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

To clear a few worries up, I am not just doing this project alone. Every
step of this process has and will been done with a 25+year luthier
repairman. I did purchase this as a project and I most certainly dont want
to ruin the intagrity of this guitar. One reason for the neck set was that
the heal was basically pulled off on one side, forcing the top in. There
perehaps more oviously to me was steel strings on this guitar at some
point in time requiring the neck set. I do certainly wish there were never
steel strings on this. This diffinitely is a gut strung instrument, I cannot
believe how tiny the braces are. Also the replacement bridge(not accurate)
was pulling off leading me to believe it was repaired from steel string
damage, and also had steel strings put right back on. There will be no
need for adding any finish to this instrument and thankfully the
replacement bridge was smaller than the original. The fingerboard is
repairable, and I do have all of the original bar frets except two, which
will be used. I will post a picture of the instrument pictured in 1892.
There is shows that the bridge was a pin bridge, showing most likely
ebony pins with dots, and that all parts of the guitar were original except
the bridge, and the two non original frets.