Official Luthiers Forum!

Mario, do you have the thickness in your platen to drill some holes and attach a dust collector to suck the belt into the platen? Or is that not one of the issues? Is that really all you're gonna share?

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I copied Sylvan Wells' method and I can radius a fretboard in less than 10 minutes.
Thanks Sylvan!

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"An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered." G. K. Chesterton.

I started with a rail mounted radiussing setup, which works fine, then moved on to Rick Micheletti's design, which works but isn't quite as solid/rigid as I'd like it to be for compound radii, so I'm going to build one for use with a router table based on a design shared on projectguitar.com a while back. Basically an upside down version of the one Rod True posted a pic of up there, with a few additional 'lock down' features and allowing for compound radii.

I will be making my own. Using a quarter sawn 6" peice of cedar, and Robosander, I wlll round out the large end radius, 14" do the whole freatboard with that, and then using 13.5"- 12" radius pattern hand plane/ sand it to a compound 12-14" radius ala Kinkead.

Filippo, without being able to see the radius guides at the ends and
how they are "guided" I can't really comment on the Micheletti
jig...but in order to do a compound correctly, the end with the flatter
radius will have to swing along a wider arc when moving away from the
centerline.  All these jigs still work great for a constant
radius, this is an issue ONLY with compound radii.



Basically, to do the compound right the jig needs to be able to swing
the fretboard through a conical surface.  If it can't then you are
likely to get almost a uniform radius (biased toward the smaller
radius) and a slight dip in the fretboard because the radius is not
changing linearly with length (this is easily checked with a radius
gauge).  This arrangement may actually be quite playable if not
geometrically spot-on, but so far the only jig I've seen that can do a
compound geometrically correct is the Grizzly contraption for their
belt sander....but there you're limited to radii between 10" and
16".  My jig looks to be close to an upside-down version of
Micheletti's, but
the big difference is the nature of the surface on which the radius
guides sit, and how the guides register on that surface....its the
registration of my jig that is not really foolproof yet (that and the
lack of dust collection tends to jam things up....).



FWIW electric players are way more fussy about the feel of a compound,
and their up-the-neck action, than most acoustic players, so they among
anyone will notice changes in the action above ~#5.  That said,
for the finely-tuned neck the final playing surface defined by the fret
tops is often neither cylindrical (constant radius) nor conical
(compound radius), because of mid-neck relief and upper-fret fall-away
that may be required by different playing styles. 



Mas o menos.

Will the router tear out MOP inlay work?

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“If God dwells inside us like some people say, I sure hope He likes enchiladas, because that's what He's getting”
-jack handy

Mario/Bob Garrish,

A luthier friend in Vancouver has been using a radiused platen for years for his fret boards. He actually does not radius his boards until they are slotted, attached to the neck, neck onto the guitar and then lays the whole guitar up to the machine and gets his radius and neck set angle done all at the same time. Scarier than all get out to watch but man is it fast and accurate. His guitars play nice as well so that speaks to the success. He and his assistant put out 80 to 100 guitars a year.

Shane

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Canada

[QUOTE=j.Brown]Will the router tear out MOP inlay work?[/QUOTE]



Yep.  I've never done more than dots, but I think most folks
radius first, then rout out for inlays, install and sand flush, then
fret.

It seems to me that the common approach to building here is overly jig oriented. Most OLFers appear to want to buy or build a jig for any process if they can, thereby building as much as possible the way factories build. The way factories build is a good model if you want to have a factory.

My building methods are usually different from the ones most used here, so I don't often comment on these "how do you . . . ?" threads. I glue the board to the neck and bind it before arching it. I don't use a jig or fixture. I rough it a little by eye on the belt sander, then I finish the job with sandpaper and a hard rubber automotive type sanding block, checking with straightedges and a set of plastic radius gauges. Takes about 20 minutes to get a compound radiused board.

I guess I could make a fixture for use with a router, but it doesn't look like much of a timesaver, and I have to consider the time making the fixture and the space it would take up. The platen for a belt sander would require me to have a longer belt sander, and there are problems to solve, such as the tendency to round the edges due to belt tension, or being able to get a compound radius.

Just to add one more factory type method that I don't think is of any good to a hand builder, I've seen a dedicated jointer with blades machined to the desired arc (in Steve Klein's Oakland shop in the 70's). Compound radius not possible, though.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=j.Brown] Will the router tear out MOP inlay work?[/QUOTE]

And how. Crack and chip would be more accurate descriptions of what happens. I'm pretty sure I could get away with levelling it with an end-mill if I could only figure out how to get a 1" ball spinning at 70000RPM...

I've done some experiments with limited success, but in the end the odds of the pearl cracking or chipping (sort of hard to explain the kind of chipping I'm referring to) outweigh the advantage of using the mill to level.

Laminated shell, OTOH, has a little give to it from the epoxy layers and has no natural fault lines so it survives much better.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Howard, I'd argue that, of all the parts in a guitar, the ones that make the most sense to "build the way factories build" are necks. I consider necks and bodies to be two very separate beasts. I want precision and repeatability in my necks and jigging up is good for that. I want more freedom when it comes to the box and am jigged up way less there.

That said, I always build my jigs as simple as possible and absolutely never take the time to make them look pretty. I want them to work but I also want to feel fine about throwing them away should I want to change something. One of my role models has been building for 35 years and he is still continually experimenting with new ideas. I never want to be dissuaded from trying new things because I'm tied to a jig that I'm into for $500 and 2 weeks of labor. I can't think of any jig in my shop that I spent more than a day and $50 on and most of them are closer to an hour and $5.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Why couldn't you mount the entire finished guitar in a lathe (lather....) and with a jigged guide turn the radius into the fret board.  Compound radiuses would be a piece of cake. 

Of course the fret board extension over the upper bout would be tricky......  You would have to rig up a cam system that pulled the jig and cutter back to clear the body much like a WWI fighter that shot it's machine gun through the propeller.........

Since Howard is into turning I thought that I would suggest this.......

And of course I am completely kidding - Happy New Year everyone....

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]

Just to add one more factory type method that I don't think is of any good to a hand builder, I've seen a dedicated jointer with blades machined to the desired arc (in Steve Klein's Oakland shop in the 70's). Compound radius not possible, though.[/QUOTE]
Thats interesting Howard! I would never have thought of that! I wonder how he holds the board while running it over the jointer?

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

This just in....Routers create less dust than sandpaper!
I built this not for speed...it was a conscious effort to reduce dust in the shop. It's the same reason why I use planes, scrapers and other implements that create large particle sized waste.

I would hardly consider my 1-3 unit annual production as any attempt to be a factory...

I actually enjoy making jigs...it improves my woodworking skills and actually makes me a better guitar builder notwithstanding the fact that I probably exceeded my jig quota in your opinion, Howard.

I usually find some value in the critiques from the pros and rarely find a reason to contradict...but this one was rather humerous IMO. We all have our own methods and it's far more productive to critique the results. If poor results are attributable to poor methods then have at it.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine, then re-built mine,


..not in the name of making them faster, but for the sake of making them better.

The fretboard is a direct connection to the player. How accurate its machined factors greatly in how accurately and correctly it plays.

I could never achieve what I seek, by hand sanding with a block.

Yeah, he missed a couple

[QUOTE=fmorelli] That's 15 rebuilds

Filippo[/QUOTE]

Yeah...after about the 10th time I might start getting a little grumpy myself!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I should add that repeatable accuracy and, as Mario suggests, the fact that fretboard is the main touchy feely bit in relation to guitars playability is the reason I built my jig. But JJ makes a good point as well, big chips don't clog your lungs like fine dust, sure you can wear a mask, but the most dangerous stuff is still there in your shop.

Cheers

Kim

Here's a fairly simple jig for radiusing fretboards. It will do cylindrical or conical surfaces. You just have to make an appropriate template for each end. I don't know how well it works but the author of the thread says it's perfect. You just keep sliding the board from end to end until the sander doesn't take anything off.

It's from a French forum for amateur luthiers hosted by the website of professional luthier Benoit de Bretagne, who makes some beautiful instruments. You'll find it about half way down this very long page.
http://www.benoit-de-bretagne.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=210 1&start=0

Making a neck and fretboard that play best for a given player is a matter not just of technology but also of art. This makes repeatability less important than it is in the production of things like machine parts. It makes the adaptability of the production method to the individual instrument and player important. If the best boards and necks were all the same, then there would be no way to improve on the playability of a neck made by robots in a place such as the Taylor factory. I believe that necks and boards machined to a factory standard can usually be improved for the purposes of a player.

A perfectly straight board with a perfectly even radius (even one that is a conic surface rather than a cylindrical one) is the starting point or reference for a fretboard. It may or may not be the end point, depending on how the guitar is to be played. One size does not fit all. I would say that the fact that the board is the main interface of the player with the instrument argues in favor of human hands and eyes being its final judge.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper] Making a neck and fretboard that play best for a given player is a matter not just of technology but also of art. This makes repeatability less important than it is in the production of things like machine parts. It makes the adaptability of the production method to the individual instrument and player important. If the best boards and necks were all the same, then there would be no way to improve on the playability of a neck made by robots in a place such as the Taylor factory. I believe that necks and boards machined to a factory standard can usually be improved for the purposes of a player.

A perfectly straight board with a perfectly even radius (even one that is a conic surface rather than a cylindrical one) is the starting point or reference for a fretboard. It may or may not be the end point, depending on how the guitar is to be played. One size does not fit all. I would say that the fact that the board is the main interface of the player with the instrument argues in favor of human hands and eyes being its final judge.

[/QUOTE]

You won't get any argument from me on that front Howard, but the jig I made can take me very close to where I want to be and any finiting can be done from there real quick.

I guess it all depends on what YOU as a builder are setting up to do. If for instance your building 50 guitars a year, best build a jig to assist you to keep up with production. If on the other hand you only build 5 PA, best build a jig to give you an accurate datum cause you may not be doing this enough to keep your eye in and some of this FB wood can be pricey.

I guess if your somewhere in between the 5 and 50 mark, you should make your own choices but the dust is a real factor that should not be fobbed off IMHO.

Cheers

Kim

Howard, I don't "get" your last post. 

what part of the radius can be shaped to the player? None. Yes, we can change the radius to suit some players, but once a radius is decided upon, there's no changing it part ways up the fretboard. and having that fretboard surface true and perfect is how I'm able to fret with SS and not touch but a couple 'spots' on the frets. Spots, as in maybe 2-3 1/4' or shorter spots.

If our fretboard isn't true, that's where we get to filing and shaping the frets so much. The frets index off the fretboard; a more perfect fretboard, makes for a more perfect fret job, and this is an area where we should try to machine to a .001" tolerance.....

The rest of the neck, shape, size, width, etc.. can certainly be changed, and is why I can't go CNC, not even CNC'd fretboards.

I'm also quite sure that hand-shaping fretboards is what lead to my issue with PauFerro and Bois D'Rose. Sanding vigorously in close proximity and breathing deeply couldn't have helped at all. As JJ said, router chips aren't near as bad.

A few of us got to watch David Collins work on a neck last week.  David is a natural born teacher and explains things very well as he moves along.

He mentioned to us that for some players he will level the frets to differing degrees in different areas, effectively creating localized relief again to match a specific player's playing style.  This may include creating sweeping areas of more relief on the bass side say from the 3rd fret through the 9th fret.

I did not fully understand what David said at the time but I have been thinking about it ever since  Now I think that I understand and I think that Howard is speaking of the same thing here but taking the customization to the fret board level - again to match a specific playing style and desired end result.  Howard am I close here?

[QUOTE=Howard Klepper]A perfectly straight board with a perfectly even
radius (even one that is a conic surface rather than a cylindrical one)
is the starting point or reference for a fretboard. It may or may not
be the end point, depending on how the guitar is to be played.
[/QUOTE]



Word.



What Howard is referring to, and what (I gather) David was also talking
about in Ann Arbor, is the playing style of a particular player and
optimizing the fret tops for that player. 



A fingerpicker with a light touch who is all over the neck would be
able to get away with very low action and almost no relief (dip)
between #3 and #10, except for some fallaway at the highest frets
(above #12). 



A flatpicker who strums hard with a heavy right hand and is always
between the nut and #5 will need more mid-neck relief between #3 and
#10, and more fallaway above #12 than the fingerpicker to avoid
buzzing.  Some of this relief can be had with truss rod tweeks,
but the relief should be a little more pronounced on the bass side
since the amplitude of string vibration is larger there (thus requires
work on the fret tops, as does the fallaway).



Guys who like low action often tend to like low frets, but some guys
prefer the ease of string bending that comes with jumbo frets. 
And on it goes.  I agree with how Howard described it, the
fretboard is the reference surface and the fret tops are where you fit
the instrument to the player.



(and since the nut and bridge string spacings are not the same, the
strings by definition describe a surface closer to a conical section
than a cylindrical one, something to keep in mind when thinking about
action, relief and fallaway)

Well as I understood Howard's last paragraph, to which my last reply was directed in the main, he was suggesting that one size does not fit all in terms of degree of compound and that the craftsman's eye and sense of feel should be the final judge of that transition. I recon that's a fair enough statement.

I maintain however that at the very least, a good jig will offer an accurate starting point from which to begin applying those skills. If you were after a mild compound, say 16" to 20", and you used a jig to cut the whole board to 20", that will give you a better reference point from which to shape in the compound by hand than starting out with a flat board.

That said, Mario makes a good point in suggesting that using your hand and eye skills can introduce human error which could then lead to chasing your tail when leveling the frets.

At this stage however I don't see much need for a compound radius fretboard on an acoustic guitar. I never say never so that could change in time but for now, what's the point?. Anyhow, at this stage in my journey I am really happy with a jig that gives me an accurate single radii of my choice that is easy to set up and does not create fine dust.

Cheers

Kim