Official Luthiers Forum!

I know a lot of you use hand planes. Todd Stock comes to mind, and I know there is more. Well, I have wanted to try them(never used one seriously)for a while. Tried to read as much as I could first on them. Then went and bid on(ebay)a #4 Stanley Bailey. Was led to believe it was an old plane-looked good in the pictures. Finally got it after spending close to $50. I got taken!! It was a newer plane(Type 20 62-67 near as I can figure), never used. Man, was I a chump!! So, bit the bullet and decided to at least try to use it. Started honeing the blade using the "Scary Sharp" method, although not useing all 7 or 8 grits. Not a bad edge. Then, checked the plane bottom. Man, it needed A LOT of flattening. I worked on it last night for 3 hours using 80 grit wet/dry paper with 1/4 plate glass and still not flat. I was so frustrated with it my wife told me to go ahead and buy a new Veritas plane. I'm bound to make this work but there is sure a lot of effort to making one usable. Kind of think I might be spinning my wheels? Should I keep on, or buy another? Really hate to drop $200 on a Veritas or L/N plane. Can some of you plane experts lend some advise? I'm ready to joint my back and top and would like to have a #4 or #5 .
Dave

Dave: I won't pretend to tell you what to do with this particular plane. But I can tell you what I did, which worked.

My father-in-law gave me an old Stanley No. 6. It needed a lot of work. I bought a new Hock blade for it, but worked, and worked, and worked, and just could not get it flat no matter what I did. Like you, it got personal and I was determined to make it work. In one of those acts of desperation, I took it to a local machine shop that had a surface grinder and asked them if they could flatten it. For $50 bucks they ground it dead flat to some ridiculous level of accuracy - and sent it back polished like a mirror. They did a great job. So essentially I have $100 bucks in a very good old plane.   You might consider something similar if you think this particular plane is the one for you (and you have the extra dough). Or, you could find an old beater, and rework it. Good luck with whatever you decide.

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Buy a LN number 4 1/2 its a little heavier than 4 and perfect for
smoothing or stock removal.

you wont have to do much fettling to get started just flatten the back on a
jap warter stone till you have 1mm of clear mirror shine fron the edge.
thenhine your micro beval only.

buy yourslf a cheap king 1000/4000 combo stone to get started with
sharpning its all you need and much better than using wet/dry paper.

you wont regret getting a L/N over the veritas it much more comfertable
plane.

However for jointing you will need no 7 but a 4 should work for now.
make sure you take very very fine dust like cuts to start with and keep
going till you get a fine continueus cut.
its realy easy to take off to much wood when jointing a top by hand.

Good luck

Joel.

I use a Record #5 that Todd reconditioned and it works great for jointing.

Are planes worth it?  You bet, one of the most satisfying parts of building for me.  My braces are almost entirely shaped with finger planes.  I profile my sides with a model maker's plane.  And I fly to the HGF on a 757......

I have not reconditioned one yet but as much as I love using them I think that it would be a really fun diversion from building for an afternoon.

Dave,
Sorry to hear of you plight. So far you are out $50 and 3 hours. Personally, I would cut my losses and not invest any more time or money in your plane. You could get it to work passibly and use it for more rough-type planing.
I searched eBay for months trying to sneak up on a #6 or #7 jointer plane. By the time I figured the time spent tuning the plane, the cost of a new iron, and the possibility that the cheeks might not be square with the sole (making shooting near impossible), I just went ahead and paid the price of the Veritas #6, which is $245 with an A2 steel blade. I have a Veritas block plane with an A2 blade that I use for top graduation. I am totally impressed with the edge holding capability of A2 and the solidity and accuracy of Veritas machining. I also considered the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Jointer from Woodcraft. It is attractively priced but opted for the higher angle Veritas. Higher angle planes have less back pressure, a concept relayed to my by plane-meister Robert Meadow.

_________________
Stay with the happy people.
--Reynolds Large

Hey Dave. I don't think 50 bucks is a terrible deal for a Bailey pattern. I
think they retail for a little more than that. Anyway, I also think that you
can get it up and running. It definately will be work but sometimes we
have more time and elbow grease than money. How is your glass
supported? I use a 1/2" piece of glass. It is a lot of work to flatten the
sole but essential and it can be done. A high polish will help to reduce
friction. Use the stock blade to make a toothed blade or keep it around
for a spare and buy a Hock blade. Better steel and more mass. Make
sure the cap is flat where it contacts the iron to help reduce chatter and
prevent shavings from jamming up in it. Also make sure to flatten the
area where the iron meets the plane body, again, to help reduce chatter.
Sometimes it can be a good idea to smooth and true the frog and body
mating surfaces to insure smooth adjustment. All that being said, both
the Veritas and the LN will not need any of this stuff done out of the box
and they both work like a dream. Hope this helps.

Dave-
Getting the bottom of a plane dead flat is nice, but not essential for most work. If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting the blade good and sharp and then get to work with the plane. You can always pull the blade back and run the plane over that glass plate some day you are in a bad mood!

BTW, I'd start with just flattening and squaring up a nice clean chunk of 2x4 softwood. Once you're confident that the plane is cutting well (can you read the newspaper through the shaving?) then you can go to work on jointing tops with it.

Sharpening, adjusting and using a hand plane are pretty much 'basics' in my book. You won't regret the time you take to learn these skills. Also, there is a bit of technique involved in hand planing if you are trying to get an even cut- basically you move the pressure from the front to the back of the plane as you make the cut.

Nothing nicer than a nice pile of wispy plane shavings on the shop floor!
Cheers

John

A good plane is a real joy to use, and a life long investment.  If you think about life-cycle costs, the expense of a good quality plane isn't too bad.  Like others said, while you can get this one working, a Veritas or LN is great right out of the box.  Buy one now while your wife is agreeable!  You can still fix the ebay special later...

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Dave, something I forgot. Make sure the iron is in the body (but obviously
retracted) and the cap tightened when you true the sole because the
tensions will be different than without the iron in place. And to answer your
post question, planes are so worth it!

I use a stanley no 5 1/4. Got it from a Stanley hardware store that went out of business 20 years ago. Found out that its purpose was for use in training schools and for women. Its smaller then a standard no 5. I love it though.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Next time you consider spending time trolling e-bay for a reasonably priced plane, try an antique shop.  There are some great finds to be had at decent prices.

Dave

[QUOTE=FishtownMike]I use a stanley no 5 1/4. Got it from a Stanley hardware store that went out of business 20 years ago. Found out that its purpose was for use in training schools and for women. Its smaller then a standard no 5. I love it though.[/QUOTE]

But..... it's a girly plane........  Just kidding ya Mike buddy and this from a guy who Lillian made a jig for .......

About a year ago I bought a Veritas honeing guide as I knew I'd be using it for chisels too. So I'm using the guide to sharpen. Yea, I'd like to purchase a decent combo stone. If I count the cost of the wet/dry sandpaper it would pay for itself. At a $1.00 a piece it counts up. Used 4 sheets already to flatten this!#%*! plane-and still need more. As far as trueing up the rest of the plane I've done that. I looked at Hock blades last week. They're about $38. I'll tell you guys, if you count the cost of all the stuff to make it right, I'm halfway to a good plane! I guess I'm partial to old stuff, and that was the reasoning behind the purchase of this Bailey. Have noticed some people really take planes over the edge. I'll never be one of those guys. Heck, I bought David Charlesworth's DVD on hand planning and it was more than what a guy like me will ever do w/it. I should have bought a simpler dvd on planning.
As far as "enjoying" reconditioning this plane, I want to get on with building my guitar! Been building forms, bending machine, shooting boards, and other "jigs", to get to the actual building process. Man on your first you spend as much time getting there as you do the actual building I think. I know-it's a process. Will keep messing with it till it gets flat or flattens me.
Dave

Todd,
No problem on the sharpening. I can shave with this blade. I actually did this first. That part I really did enjoy!
Dave

I just built my first Krenov style plane.  Love it.  I even think adjusting it is easier than a Bailey.  Building it took less time than fixing up a Bailey.  Hock sells a kit, but I did mine from scratch from the book Making and Mastering Wood Planes.  This book also has tips for use, sharpening, and tuning metal planes.

I'm a complete beginner to woodworking, not just guitar making.

Consequently I've spent a fair bit of time making 'stuff' which isn't guitar-related the last couple of months in preparation of working with nice tonewood. The idea being to have sufficient chops when I start working with the 'good stuff' that I don't waste it due to sloppy workmanship.

I have to say one of my favourite tasks so far has been hand-planing. Took me quite a while to get the 'hang of it', but when you have a well-honed plane making tightly curled less-than-paper-thin shavings it's incredibly satisfying. Maybe that's just because I'm compeltely new to it, maybe not.

I picked up these two planes (18" and 22" I believe, though I still haven't got round to measuring them) for ?5 each in a local flea market.

The blade on the larger one needed replacing, but the one on the smaller plane was (very surprisingly) already honed to the 'ludicrously sharp' point and planed like butter. (Please note that's a martin-dimensioned OM behind them for scale)

They're made from some kind of hard wood, don't know what exactly but they both weigh and absolute ton and the soles are spot-on flat, the edges a perfect 90 degrees.

All in all, I'd say it was the best ?10 I've spent since I started down this guitar-building path. :)

The best part of any wood related project is using a fine plane.

_________________
"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I have quite a few stanley planes it takes some work to get them flat. I agree with todd on the blu belts from Norton. The first couple I flattened were with regular wet/dry sand paper. Someone told me about the blu belts, I tried them and will never use anything else for this purpose. They work great.

I have also bought a Vertas low angle block plane. Great purchase. If you are able to afford the vertas or LN planes they are truely worth it and you won't be sorry you did. Especially a plane that you will use alot like the block or a type 4.

I would buy the Vertas plane, and resell the Stanley.

my 2 cents
davido

Although a flat sole may not be 'essential' on a plane, it sure makes using it a heckuva lot nicer in almost all work.

I bought a Record #4 as one of my first purchases more than 30 years ago. It was a while before I found out that it was essentially a 'plane kit': a set of parts that, with a bit of work, could be turned into a decent plane. Once I got it trued out and tuned up right, things went much better. I hate to think about how many acre-feet of wood I've removed with that tool, including doing all of my joining. Recently I got a Hock blade in it, and it's now even better.

My other favorite plane is my Veritas low angle block plane; the only one I've ever had that could consistently take shavings off end grain. I use it for all of my rosette work, as well as a lot of general purpose stuff.

For planing bone for nuts and saddles I use the old Stanley low angle, with the original iron. Sharpen it to a really blunt bevel, and it will hold up well on bone. The harder Hock irons tend to chip. I also have an assortment of violin makers finger planes, and one of the little Lie-Neilsen planes that was given to me, and gets a lot of use.

Even after all of these years of making instruments, I still enjoy using a well set up and sharp plane. Many of the things that people do with complicated jigs and routers, or even CNC, can be done pretty simply with a hand plane if you know how. When you make a wide variety of instruments, as I do, the flexibilty and precision of good hand tools makes a lot of sense, rather than filling the back room with a ton of specialized jigs. Besides, there is no smoother surface than a freshly hand planed one, and nothing glues better.   

Any money spent on a LN LV plane will be worth every penny (so long as you buy a plane thats useful to you)
There are some jobs where nothing but a plane will do I find,,, using a plane is my favorite woodworking operation!
Cheers
Charlie

Where do you get these "Blue 60" belts. Never seen them?
Dave

I love my hand planes. I have three, the sharpening is hassle, but the planing is satisfying and warms you up in a very cold workshop. I bought two of them at a car boot sale for a great price and the blades were in great condition, just needed honing.

[QUOTE=Hesh]
[QUOTE=FishtownMike]I use a stanley no 5 1/4. Got it from a Stanley hardware store that went out of business 20 years ago. Found out that its purpose was for use in training schools and for women. Its smaller then a standard no 5. I love it though.[/QUOTE]But..... it's a girly plane........  Just kidding ya Mike buddy and this from a guy who Lillian made a jig for .......[/QUOTE]
Hesh for years that i went in this store it set on a shelf unsold and i always wondered why. Then after the going out of business sale i bought it for a good price. I did some research on it and found out about its purpose then I knew why it sat there all them years. But its still a great plane. I just need to wear a dress when i use it.

_________________
Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Back to your original question. I am not the least bit romantic about hand planes. I love to use power tools and special set up jigs for many of my operations. However, I can't think of a time in the last few years that I went into the shop and didn't end up using a chisel or one of my planes. Learning how to set up and use these tools might well be one of the most important skills you can get. So, yes, it is worth it.

Flattening the sole of a plane can be a lot of work but it needs to be done. Don't think of truing a plane as a preliminary step to using it. Think of it as a project in its own right. That way it is easier to take the time to do it right and not skip, or skimp on, any steps.

Lie Nielsen #103 block, #3 and #5 Bench here. These tools make your life easier...I could never go back to the #4 and #6 for instrument building.