Official Luthiers Forum!

Hey guys, my pitch of the day... Help me explain in non luthiers terms the choice of woods and the tone they produce and the style of play they are better for for the Montreal Guitar Show attendees... We are talking flat tops here...

Tops and backs...  The traditionnal ones and the new woods would be great too!

As the Grumpy Mario always says..."Let your ears choose the top and let your eyes choose the backs and sides."

I'll let the experts chime in on top wood but I'm definitely of the school of thought that B&S wood has a minimal effect on the sound.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

[QUOTE=JJ Donohue]As the Grumpy Mario always says..."Let your ears choose the top and let your eyes choose the backs and sides."



I'll let the experts chime in on top wood but I'm definitely of the school of thought that B&S wood has a minimal effect on the sound.[/QUOTE]

Great line indeed!

I would love also to get the more academic answer .

Adirondack spruce is the "Holy Grail" of top tonewoods right now, mainly because of it's reputation as the wood of choice for pre-war instruments..

Sitka spruce was the choice for tops after the war by Martin.

European spruce has it's reputation from the wood of choice for Stradavarious.

Englemann spruce is also a good tonewood and is being used by several major manufacturers.

Lutz spruce is so rare that as far as I know the only people using it are Luthiers. Excellent tonewood!

And then there is redwood. Certainly a tonewood but mostly valued for its appearance.

Western red cedar is also a good tonewood. It produces good quality sound from the first note. There is some concern among luthiers that this wood may degrade in tone over the long haul where spruce sounds better over time. The jury is still out on the western red cedar.

There are certainly other top woods available and used, but these are the major ones. The thing about luthiers is that we strive to coax the best sound out of each piece of wood, no matter what kind. There are so many variations in this type of wood, even pieces from the same tree, that it would be difficult to place a hard rule on the sound achieved from any particular type; especially spruce.

Wood from the same billet may sound completely different when coupled with different back and side woods. This holds true for differing guitar shapes also.

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Reguards,

Ken H

While the back and sides do play a part in tone like JJ said the top is the big one as far as the wood influence on tone.

Truth is there are far too many variables involved that affect tone to give a layman a tone value for specific species.

Some generalizations are true but can be altered with building techniques like Cedar and Redwood are warm in tone. Maples are bright in tone so on and so on. But this is only a small part of what infuances the tone of an instrument.

I've found that as far as generalizations go, the common beliefs about top woods usually hold true.  The more dense woods can better handle strong attack and have a crisper sound and the less dense woods tend to sound warmer, less edgy.  And that seems to be true within and between species.

The only misconception in my experience is WR Cedar.  The cedar tops I've used do sound good immediately but they also improve with age.  At least in the first 10 years.

As for back/sides having minimal effect, I'd disagree with that.  During construction, they can be taken out of the equation more than top wood, but they can also certainly work for you.  The less damping woods like the true rosewoods add sustain and some very noticeable crystalline overtones on the mids and highs.  Western maple is the other end of the extreme and in my experience, it doesn't support the highs as well but it can give you a lot of punch with quicker decay.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I don't think it's so much the species of the back and side wood that's important, it's how the overall mass of the back and sides interact with the rest of the instrument. Not enough mass and you will lose energy from the top as well as encourage lower freqencies that may rob your instrument of it's volume and bright upper range.

Where species matters is that different woods have different densities so that appropriate guaging is all important. Of the commonly used woods African Blackwood is among the densest, Brazilian rosewood next then Indian rosewood and down the line through the maples, koa, walnuts and mahoganies (not necessarily in that order depending on the stock). I will usually vary my back and side thicknesses depending on the type of wood I'm using. My nominal rosewood measurements being .100" (2.5mm) for backs and .080" (2mm) for sides on classical guitars.

As far as top wood is concerned it depends on the back and side wood and the type of guitar. For steel strings I particularly like Brazilian rosewood and Sitka Spruce as the Sitka moderates the greater density and resultant brightness of the Brazilian. European Spruce and Brazilian can almost be too bright for steel especially in smaller sizes. Adirondack spruce (being similar to European) seems to be favored for 14 fret Dreadnoughts. This makes some sense due to the overall bass resonance of that particular design. I have not jumped on the Adirondack bandwagon though as most of what is available is of poor overall quality.  

The combination of European Spruce and the rosewoods I think is ideal for classicals in which bright singing trebles are the makers goal.

 

I've no experience with cedar tops so I'll leave that for others......    

 

Can I take a crack at this as I've played and bought more guitars than I've built?

For fingerstyle instruments I tend to gravitate towards guitars that use western red cedar, redwood, or englemann spruce. Why? They seem to respond better to a lighter touch, sound more complex, and ring on forever. Also, cedar and redwood's tone seems "warmer/darker" than englemann.

For flatpicking or strumming I still go for sitka spruce. It's loud and punchy. I've played a few older red spruce (Adirondack) guitars but haven't noticed them to be any louder or complex than sitka ones although literature seems to claim they are.

As far as hardwoods are concerned, I've remarked that when playing faster fingerstyle, chick'n pickin', or flatpicking; walnut and mahogany guitars are clear and precise whereas rosewood guitars sound like a bag of marbles (i.e. the notes seem all caught up inside the guitar). Great for hiding mistakes! I like rosewood for slower, brooding pieces in which notes go on-and-on.

Tonally for steel string I believe guitars can be divided into four groups that anyone that has an ear should be able to tell.

Spruce (any) top / mahogany (any) B&S
Spruce top / rosewood (and clones) B&S
Cedar(redwood)top/mahogany B&S
Cedar (redwood)top Rosewood B&S

After that it's down to the individual piece of wood and more importantly the builder.

But European Spruce / Cuban mahogany is the king of all combinations.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

    The top, of course, is more of a contributor to the tone of the guitar
and to its response chracteristics than the back and sides, but the back
and sides certainly contribute significantly to the tone as well, so they
need to be given more than simply aesthetic consideration.

    One of the more obvious and most commonly experienced situations
that serve as evidence of this being true is the obvious difference between
a very nice D-18 with its Mahogany back and sides matched to a Sitka
Spruce top and a very nice D-28 with its Rosewood back and sides and its
equally nice Sitka Spruce top. They're braced identically and are built in
the same shape and dimensions with the only major difference being the
back and side materials.

    Mahogany offers a much more dry and punchy tone than Rosewood
whose tone is much darker and conducive to a thicker, more lush bottom
end. Koa falls very close to the tone of Mahogany and the harder woods
like Zircote and Macassar Ebony offer characteristics more similar to
Rosewood. You'll find in Bluegrass circles that there are still a good
number of player who prefer a D-18 over a D-28.

    Back and sides are much more than eye candy on any guitar so you'll
have to consider what they offer to tone as well as what they offer
visually. I agree that many players choose them for their appearance, but
they are, most times, willing to accept the tone that comes with the looks.

    If any player has a beautiful Rosewood guitar whose tone they love and
they want a similar tone with a different back and side wood on their new
guitar, they'll have to choose their wood accordingly and their luthier will
have to direct them to the options that are capable of delivering it.

   There's not a builder in the world who can coax the tone that is typical
of a guitar with Rosewood back and sides from the same guitar with
Mahogany back and sides and that goes for the different species that we
all use. It's just not going to happen because the sides and back are far
more than just a pretty support structure for the top.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

"a very nice D-18 with its Mahogany back and sides matched to a Sitka
Spruce top and a very nice D-28 with its Rosewood back and sides and its
equally nice Sitka Spruce top. They're braced identically and are built in
the same shape and dimensions with the only major difference being the
back and side materials. "

An excellent and simple illustration Kevin of how, when all other things are equal, back and side woods can make a significant difference in tone.

If the the construction is adjusted in order to compensate for the wood there might be less difference but I do not think one could eliminate it entirely. 

    Sorry for the sequential posts, but I wanted to mention a few things
about top woods as well.

   Adirondack is the Holy Grail of top woods for those seeking the tone
and response that it is capable of. It is the favorite top of heavy
flatpickers and bluegrass players, but it can be easily voiced to provide a
surpising ability to respond to lighter pick and finger attack.

    Sitka is a great all around top wood that can cover pretty much any
style of playing with great efficiency. There are alot of players who still
prefer it over the stiffer alternatives like Adirondack Spruce because it's
more easily driven, but also over the lighter, softer choices like Cedar and
Engelmann Spruce because it retains its note separation and articulation
under a heavy attack.

   Western Red Cedar has become the standard wood for fingerstyle
guitars and players because its ability to respond well to the very lightest
attack from either fingers or pick. One of the things that make it a wood
to avoid for heavier or harder players is its tendency to lose its
atriculation or note spearation when pushed hard. Even though a Cedar
top can be brought to a thickness and braced to accommodate a heavier
attack before it begins to exhibit this loss of separation, it's more
commonly braced lightly to respond under lighter conditions.

    I've always apprciated the way Cedar can be overdriven and how the
note and harmonic blankets can mix together as it's pushed hard creating
an almost "orchestral" feel. It is observed as a shortcoming by some, but I
feel that it's just another unique characteristic of the wood as a top.

    The different European Spruces can offer a wide variety of tones and
response chracteristic sets so players can find one that will meet their
playing needs very easily. Again, the luthier will need to explain the
differencs that they've experienced using all of them in order to direct
their customers to the wood that will best meet their needs.

   Too many times, exotic woods from half way around the world become
the new craze more for their ability to generate great upcharges for the
builder than for their ability to deliver great tone for the players. It's up to
the luthier to share the best alternatives for their guitars with their
customers...always with the customer and his needs in mind.

   We know about the woods we use...or we should because of our
experience.....so people are going to trust us to help them make
decisions that will prove themselves to be the right ones as their guitars
are completed and delivered.

   These are just my opinions that I've arrived at through my building
experience. I've always been of the school of thought closer to the violin
world where each component of the instrument is considered not only for
its individual tone and resonance qualities, but also for their relationship
to those of the components adjecent to it. Each component contributes to
the operation and efficiency of the system that they form as whole in the
guitars we build....in my opinion, that is.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars