Official Luthiers Forum!

Hy everyone,

Jacques-Andre Dupont here, the organizer of the Montreal Guitar Show.

I'm starting this new topic to be able to get some information from luthiers or musicians here on the OLF...

In a nutshell, with the show and other things that I am doing I'm helping promote the great work of the luthiers...

But I feel I could do more...

I think that we can be better at selling guitars made by luthiers...  So I would like to add in our web site and our print program at the show information to help explain why it is a good thing for a guitar player (hobbyist, amateur, collector or pro) to buy a luthier guitar...

Yes this is a very basic question... But I think that it needs to be done and explained to as many people as possible... So I will pick your brain and try to edit answers I will get in this forum for our purpose of helping the luthiers to be more recognize and to sell more guitars...

I will post other luthiers 101 topics... But today, tell me, why should anyone buy a luthier guitar?

Well the obvious reason has to do with the time spent on the details like the joinery and most importantly the tuning of the instrument musically. Of course the personal customization is a factor to many, but the real advantage for choosing Handcrafted over factory built has to do with the attention to detail of the instrument musically.

Oh, there are so many good reasons...

Here are just a few, from a marketing (sort-of) standpoint.

1. Because a customer deserves the best. They've worked hard at their jobs, built a successful career, and now they can splurge on a great instrument because they've earned it and deserve it.

2. Because they can get what they want to the smallest detail.

3. Because typically, a hand-made guitar will be better than a factory made guitar. YMMV.

4. They are a status symbol of their success.

5. They are a good investment.

6. Because they represent a greater value than ever before, since factory "custom shop" instruments are so expensive.

7. There has never been a time where so many great guitars are being built, and they are within reach financially.

8. Because there is something *special* about the process of having something built just for you. There is tremendous utility (satisfaction) in that.

9. Because only a privileged few can ever own a D.E.Williams Guitar.

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

To me, the most important reason is the variability of wood. Two tops of the same species can vary by as much as 40% in lengthwise stiffness and density, and much more than that in crosswise stiffness. There is no simple way to sort them out quickly: you have to measure, and that takes time. The costliest input in a production setting is time, and no large shop making instruments of standardized parts can take the time to alter things to get the best performance out of each piece of wood.

Also, when you are working with standardized parts you have to assume that your weakest top is going to receive the weakest set of braces: any other course is inviting warrenty work. Manufacturers have to overbuild on the average.

Every luthier I know has some sort of system for figuring out just how light they can make a top and still have it be strong enough. They may not even think about it, but tapping and flexing, or even listening to the wood as it's being worked, can give that information. Many of us use more sophisticated and 'technical' methods as well.

However it's done, it's one of the things that a good luthier learns to do. Even when we build to standard designs that are externally similar, we all vary the wood thickness, brace sizes and patterns, and many other details, to get the results we want, or, more importantly, the results our customers want.

The big guys can work to averages: they know that given basically good designs each guitar they make will suit some player. If they make enough of them, and get them out where people can play them, the 'right' person is likely to find each one and go home happy. We usually start out with a sound in mind, whether defined by us or our customers, and try to wrap a box around it. It's like catching smoke in a bottle sometimes. But that's the luthiers job, and over time anybody who is successful gets pretty good at it.    

No, no, no....

The single most important reason why a person should purchase/commission their guitar from a Luthier is the sound/tone - Luthier built guitars sound better (or at least many of them do) over factory guitars.

Luthier built guitars are often individually voiced to be optimized for tone, playing style, comfort factors, and player personality (to bling or not to bling) as well as playability.

All the other reasons above including customization are certainly very valid.  But humans, most of us any way, want immediate gratification and this is exactly what players will receive when they are awe struck by the beautiful tone of every note that they play.

Period!

I think that "shhh . . . you know who" had some good points to make about this - read it here

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

"attention to detail of the instrument musically."

Same thing differnt words

Thanks all, this is great help. keep them coming, and thanks for the link to Ervin...  lots of good info there...

Yes this is basic stuff again, but I thing that this is tipping point info to be spread around, and I will do my part...

I'm all ears!

It seems to me that with the advent of afordable CNC we're bound to lose the 'precision workmanship' contest. You could probably cut the same neck joint that Taylor does by hand if you had to, but not in any reasonable length of time. If the manufacturers decide to go after us on 'fit and finish', we'll lose, or, at least, not do any better than they can do. If we're going to mount a fight, it should be on ground of our choosing.

It's not just 'tone' either: there are some killer sounding factory jobs out there. What we have that they don't is control over tone: the ability to make what we want to make more or less every time. Under the circumstances, there is no way a manufacturer can do this as well as even the average good luthier.

And remember, that control extends into territory that would simply be uneconomical for any manufacturer. economically viable production requires a certain number of indentical units be made. One-offs, or even ten-offs, are not going to interest them. There may not be many people who want a left-handed wedge steel string with a 23" scale, but how many of those do you need to make, along with all of your other stuff?

Aside from the practical advantages covered well already, I find a lot of buyers who value the personal relationship.  Most people are far removed from the folks who build the the things they buy.  That's fine for something like a blender that is made in a factory and purchased at a box store.  A guitar, on the other hand, is personal.  Not only are individual luthiers putting their personal touch on every detail of the instrument, we are also usually there developing a direct relationship with the buyer.  There is a healthy sentimentality that comes from knowing the person that built your guitar and valuing that relationship.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

I second what Kent said. A guitar is an extremely personal item, like a friend. Many among us give them a gender (male or female), and a name. And we'll trust few people with them, the way we would our children or a beloved family member. If someone tells you: "I'm thinking of getting a dog." You'll respond, "Oh really, what kind?" And you do this because you know an animal is more than just something that takes, it gives much in return. And if that person were to say, "Ah, it's just a dog, any old breed will do", what would you think about that person? Guitars are very similar to that. They give back.

There are only a few things made in a factories that inspire that kind of emotion?

_________________
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Kevin wrote this in a recent thread and I copied it to a word document. I
thought it offered a lot to learn from.

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher] Kent,
   You're exactly right when you say that the large houses buold to
dimension and not according to the stiffnes or resnonance of any of the
components at hand.

   I can speak from experience for the Martin shop. There was a time
when a craftsman would examine each part of the guitar that was on his
bench and would consider its resonant qualities and stiffness as he chose
the edjacent componants according to how they would work together and
compliment opne another, but it has been a very long time since that was
a practice in their shop.

   With the huge demand that they have to meet on a daily basis (more
than 500 guitars a day), the possibility for time to be spent on such
charming and romantic facets of building is a thing of the past.

    The sheer numbers of guitars that Martin has produced has established
their models and design details to a point where general consistency
comes from the dimensions and material choices that they've arrived at.
Things are production oriented, as automated as possible and quota
driven for a large part. I remember back in the early 90s when each
department was plastered with several dry erase marker boards with
statements to the effect of, "Today's production...300 (for example)" and
"Tomorrow's goal...325 (for example)." A few of us recommended against
it for the sake of the tour groups that were usually filled with folks who
were 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation Martin enthusiats and still had the
romantic vision of lone luthiers huddled over the worn work benches
hand carving braces and such. They didn't last long and you don;t see
them on the tour route now, but the numbers are still clearly
communicated to the employees of each department nonetheless.

   There are very few employees out of the hundreds working there who
can actaully build an entire guitar from start to finish...probably under a
half dozen. The balance of employees have been trained to do one...or a
few....specific steps or operations in the build process in order to make
them "specialists of sorts. The few who inlay rosettes, do so very well and
very quickly. Those who brace tops and backs, do them well and very
quickly. The list goes on of specific steps that are done as quickly and
neatly as possible to keep the parts moving toward being added to the
assembly of the guitars.

   When a top or back or a set of sides are chosen for a guitar, they aren't
tapped and then matched with bracing that will contribute to the strength
of the braced top according to its stiffness or will compliment or balance
the tone of the braced top after they're joine to one another. The parts
are simply grabbed from the top of the stack or box next to the bench
and glued up as quickly and neatly as possible. That goes for all
components that are generally considered major tone contributors...like
tops and their braces....as well as more passive components.

    Stiffness and resonance variables are within a range that allows this
kind of random selection to present fairly consistent tone and stiffness
and the well establiched body shapes and dimensions keep everything
within what has become the expected and signature tone of a Martin
Guitar.

   They don't have time to push the limits of design too much simply
because what they do has been working well enough to keep their guitars
in demand. They do try new and different things occasionally, but the
underlying structural and design ideas remain inside the Martin box.

    They're building wonderful guitars here in Nazareth, but they're
building alot of them every day and in avery different environment than
many people envision.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars[/QUOTE]

What Al said... Can  a person with paint brushes, and easel, and a pallet of oil paints compete with a SLR camera on precision? Of course not. But that doesn't stop anyone from admiring and enjoying a great, original painting, now does it?

And here's my take on this question: if someone has to ask why a handmade instrument, then that someone is in the wrong place and won't "get it". It's that simple. I'd also suspect that 99% of the attendees at a guitar show like Montreal don't need to ask that question, since if they had to ask it, they wouldn't be there anyhow.

[QUOTE=grumpy] I'd also suspect that 99% of the attendees at a guitar show like Montreal don't need to ask that question, since if they had to ask it, they wouldn't be there anyhow.


[/QUOTE]

The fact is yes, they do... I spent a great deal of time discussing with the attendees and a big percentage of these guys had that question... This is why I want to try to organize our thoughts around this question to communicate better on this topic...

Again I know that this is basic, but let's try to go through this questions and others that I will post, I will become a much better maven fo the luthiers....

thanks for contributing all!

The responses to this question fall into two categories as I see it. The "warm and fuzzy" category and the "no BS" category. Yet, both are very important from a marketing point of view depending on the nature of the customer.

The "warm and fuzzy" category includes the romance of gettng a hand made guitar that a luthier literally poured his blood, sweat and tears into just for you personally. Let's not forget that an average Martin guitar has just 12 hours of human labor into it and even a fast luthier has at least 40 hours into a guitar. And we all know that a factory "Custom Series" guitar just isn't.

The "no BS" category, which interests me more, was very well responded to by Al and James (Kevin's quote)comments. As long as we are dealing with a material as organic as wood, we are going to need "organic" indivuals to sense, measure and process this material rather than ridgid machines. The question then becomes, does the customer hear and appreciate the value added by the luthier in terms of tone? Even some very good players tend to listen with their eyes and prejudices rather than trusting their ears.

I think there is also a third "bridge" category that has to do with Gestalt. I really believe that when someone pours their soul into their work the result is more than the sum of its parts. This is something that is not easily measured, but is experienced. Somehow a part of the artist is in the art. This has to do with the motivation of the artist rather than with the art form itself. Thus it can be equally true for anybody including scientists, athletes, etc. But it is rare to find this kind of motivation and dedication among factory workers.

_________________
Randy Muth
RS Muth Guitars Website
RS Muth Guitars Blog
Facebook Fan Page

By choosing to go to a luthier, a player is able to get what they want and need down to the smallest detail and not have to settle for what is available at the time.

I really think this has a great influence on a beginner becoming dedicated to a future as a competent player, and the expert knowing without a doubt that they have the best tool for thier job.

How many luthier-built guitars does one see at garage sales and waiting along the curb with the trash cans?

Coe

_________________
Give me 50 cents worth of regular.
Check my oil too, if you don`t mind,,,

There is another category of players who want something that the manufacturers simply cannot provide. Examples are someone with huge or small hands that the traditional guitar does not fit well, someone who wants an extra string or two, someone who wants a larger or shorter scale to better fit their voice, etc.

Mystique and personality coupled with an attention to detail that factories as
good as many of them are just don't provide. As I see it many of factories
overbuild the guitar to reduce warranty issues (totally understandable) while
the luthier guitar can be adjusted in the build to be lighter (according to the
players style). The relationship between the luthier and the customer allow
for a custom setup dictated by the players desires and playing style. This
allows for a guitar with a setup suited to the player "out of the box" rather
than finding a factory guitar that you like and having it set up by a luthier to
meet your needs. This along with the customer having a say in the design
process and seeing the instruments "born" lay an important foundation as
you are selling the experience as much as you are selling the guitar. Keep in
mind that I am an extreme rookie (3 completed guitars and two instruments
in process) but this is my opinion.

Perhaps it would be interesting to look at the opposite question. Why not buy form a luthier? I recently asked several players, who had not bought a luthier made instrument, why they hadn't. There were many answers but the most important were these three:

1. Uncertainty as to the resale value. Many players buy and sell a lot of instruments and they were worried that a guitar from someone that they had never heard of (That includes most of the "big name" luthiers.) would lose value as soon as they brought the instrument home. With a Martin or a Taylor they have some idea as to the depreciation.

2. They would not buy an instrument that they have never played. They might buy luthier made instrument that they have tried but wouldn't commission one. I find this point interesting in that the "problems" with factory built guitars mentioned above that they were inconsistent was viewed as an inherent aspect of all guitars. ie There is a belief a luthier would do no better than a factory. Several players who expressed this view would buy on-line from Elderly but only because the could send it back if it turned out to be a dud. They assumed that a commissioned guitar would not have any return policy.

3. Price. There was an assumption that a luthier built instrument would be too expensive. Some of these guys owned D45s and other special edition instruments but still felt that a custom instrument would be out of their price range.

There were other issues such as uncertain warranty and no independent source of information on the quality of the luthier. These were secondary to the three issues above.

With the exception of price, The main concerns were all based on fear. "If I spend all this money am I going to get stuck with a piece of junk that I hate and can't sell?"

Randy Muth said: The responses to this question fall into two categories as I see it. The "warm and fuzzy" category and the "no BS" category.

No offense but I'm not particularly fond of the labels of "warm and fuzzy" and "no BS".  To me, warm/fuzzy implies surface emotions with no depth or value.  "No BS" implies that the "warm/fuzzy" is BS.  Based on the rest of your post, you don't seem to believe either of those to be true.  Sorry if this is just a picky semantic argument but language is important.

Both the practical and less tangible benefits offered by individual builders can equal real value.  Lots of people, myself included, will pay more (or at least comparison shop less) to support quality and the values they believe in.  Whether it's politics, an ideology, a romantic ideal, or a personal relationship, intangible things equal real value to a lot of buyers.

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http://www.chassonguitars.com

Often our most rewarding experiences in life come from introducing risk and embracing the element of chance.

To an extent, the act of engaging a luthier is a tacit rejection of at least some of the values embodied in the mass production of articles.

Therefore, the act of engaging a luthier is an acknowledgment that something of value is imparted to the instrument by a process including interpersonal relationships, individual craftsmanship and artistry which is unattainable by any other means.

_________________
"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I should probably add that what exactly that value is (or values) will be different for each individual.

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"Building guitars looks hard, but it's actually much harder than it looks." Tom Buck

I know I'm covering territory already covered above, but let me tell of several of my new and active commissions:

1) Five string acoustic electric short scale (30 3/4") tenor bass tuned A to F#.   Yeah, there weren't any at Guitar Center...

2) Five string left handed tenor uke with the option of tunneling the 5th string under the fingerboard and up and out at the 5th fret so it plays like a 5 string banjo...or not with the string above the frets.

3) Two 15" mini-jumbo acoustic nylon string hybrid guitars. 14 frets to the body, jumbo shape, classically braced tops.

4) Probably order from Fred Frith for a seven string bariton acoustic electric so he can cover bass parts and guitar parts in a new band.

So where do you go to get instruments like these made?   To a luthier...

Then there's all the other stuff we can do...like make drop dead beautiful limited editions, introduce new design ideas that the major makers wouldn't dare try like side ports, armrests, etc., etc.   I actually see us luthier-types having a long term impact on major manufacturers. If we could fast forward 25 years, I'll bet that a lot of features that started in a garage somewhere make it to mainstream.

Then there's inlay. Who do you think Martin, Fender, and Gibson hired when they needed unique decorative elements? Right, a bunch of brilliant luthier-artists...all of whom learned their crafts basically on their own or in the case of Larry Robinson, working for a small, luthier-owned company...mine.

Even technology figures in. Where have most of the current uses for Carbon Fiber in guitars and basses come from? Small shop luthiers.   Amplification...where's some of the state of the art coming from there?   Small businesses with luthiers at the head...Lloyd Baggs and myself to name two.

Luthiers' shops are the ground zero of a great deal of R&D, and probably always will be. Why? Because of pure, unadulterated passion.

Why? Because of pure, unadulterated passion.

And that's why I say they'll "get it" or not. To many people, the above just won't sink in, even after it's explained. And if we break down the why's and wherefor's to the nuts and bolts of it to make our point, we lose sight of the over statement.

[QUOTE=muthrs]
I think there is also a third "bridge" category that has to do with Gestalt. I really believe that when someone pours their soul into their work the result is more than the sum of its parts. This is something that is not easily measured, but is experienced. Somehow a part of the artist is in the art. This has to do with the motivation of the artist rather than with the art form itself. Thus it can be equally true for anybody including scientists, athletes, etc. But it is rare to find this kind of motivation and dedication among factory workers.[/QUOTE]

To me, this is the most important part of a hand built guitar. I dont think I could have said it better if I had tried.

_________________
Reguards,

Ken H