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Great questions Filippo! I used a vacuum setup for another woodworking project and was amazed how well vacuum clamping works. Joe Woodworker has a great vacuum set up. I plan to build a Joe Woodworker setup so my vacuum doesn't have to run non-stop. I did also find that the latex material that Joe Woodworker sells works well but I had to be careful to keep the glue off the breather mesh. After I used the set up a few times I found that things worked best to keep the glue away from anything that wasn't wood because once the vacuum pulls the glue starts to spread. ;)

I will be curious to see others input.

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Brad
Avon, OH

I have built the JWW system, it is very nice. I made the resoviors a little larger and that was a big help... in fact I wish I had even made them bigger. My only advice on this would be to be extra careful and make sure everything is sealed up tight. I had a small leak and it was a real bear to find.

I would also recommend the Charles Fox Article in the GAL book. He has a lot of good ideas in there, but the ones about the vacuum frames were especially good. He did not like the hinge systems and came up with a different way to hold the lid in place so that it didn't squash the rear gasket material so bad. (Essentially it wasn't actually attached, but held in place with guide pins)

The LMI guitar vice is a very nice vacuum jig. I use mine almost daily.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

I'm using vacuum for clamping braces and bridges. My first bracing jig was a hinged box that held my sanding dish. I underestimated the stress that would be put on the jig and had to rebuild it after the lid started to deform. I switched to a "circle top" that seals to my painted cement floor. If you're going to use a sanding dish as your form, I think a circle top is the way to go. There won't be large unsupported gaps between the jig and the form so there's no extra stress on the jig. Also, vacuum drawdown will be quicker since there will be little unused space. I've never timed it, but I think I get full vacuum in less than 30 seconds. I'm using the 1/16" rubber sheet from LMI. It's not clear but I've never had problems with glue sticking to it. I bought a Gast pump from joe woodworker (the smallest one they sell). I didn't have an air compressor at the time and was concerned about noise from a venturi pump. I bought all my fittings and foam from Joe as well. My bridge clamp is from LMI. I locate the bridge on the top and drill and ream the holes for the E strings. Then I use the tapered polyethylene pins from Stewmac to hold the bridge in place during the vacuum process.

Filippo:

I'll share what I know:

1) I don't know anyone selling luthier specific vac jigs except LMI. They sell a bridge vac jig, which I own and is fantastic, and a couple versions of a guitar holder, that uses vacuum. Like you, I know others had intentions of offering jigs, but I haven't seen them. As for Don - and I don't pretend to speak for Don - he did most definitely make several vac press jigs, for friends, etc., and they are sensational. But he never intended to produce them, and these days, due to a work promotion, and some extra college work he's doing, he's totally covered up. I'll be happy, more than happy, to send you some photos of the jig Don built...I was lucky enough to be one of the recipients of that vac press.

2) Don's version is the hinged version, and that works great. The only drawback I can see is that you have to make the press large enough to hold your full radius dishes, or have extras that you can use. Also, I've seen the circle setup, and it's impressive. PM BobK on here; he made one and it's very nice, and works great per Bob. You can't go wrong with either, it just depends on your circumstances and needs.

3) JoeWoodworker is the place, for sure. BUT, I have seen similar vac rigs to the JWW model that work fantastic, and can be built a little cheaper. It was made by an OLFer named Jim Hall. You might PM Jim to see if he's building them for others. Jim is quite an "inventor", and I think at some point in the future he intends to produce a few jigs for sale. Give him a shout. But barring that, the JWW rig rules, yes.

4) Don gave the siliconized rubber a shot on a couple of vac rigs he built. The issue, at least at the time, was that he/we couldn't find it "thin enough" to be pliable around the braces etc., whereas the rubber could be bought thin enough, from a variety of sources. LMI sells the regular rubber in sheets. However, the original source of the silicone rubber I bought was from a guy on eBay named rubbermann7. You might search for him. Great guy, good prices, good service. He just didn't have it thin enough at the time. I can tell you that even with the glue squeeze out sticking to the rubber, it's just a quick few wipes with a damp paper towel to get it off. Nothing significant at all.

So there you go. Others will be along shortly to go into much greater detail than I did. Shoot me a PM sometime, and I'll take some photos for you of my Don Williams hinged vac rig. I'm traveling this week for Thanksgiving, but I'll be able to get them first of next week.

Bill

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

It's a real bear to get a system completely leak-free and able to hold a vacuum for an extended period. I run my press with the pump on continuously, but if you get it sealed up perfectly <lol> you can use Joe Woodworker's reserve tank rig to cycle the pump and also get a faster draw down, if I have my info straight.
The tough thing, as I said is getting the unit sealed perfectly. There are different seals available, from closed cell window seal from Agent Orange or the Smurfs, and there are also some closed cell tapes made specifically for vacuum applications. You can also use a vacuum bag setup as well, but having a frame is the best way to go. In spite of what C.Fox has said, having a frame that is hinged properly can be a real asset. I would reference Taylor Guitars' setup, where they have hinged units set in drawers. That's a great setup, and works well for them.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Brock Poling] He did not like the hinge systems and came up with a different way to hold the lid in place so that it didn't squash the rear gasket material so bad. (Essentially it wasn't actually attached, but held in place with guide pins)

The LMI guitar vice is a very nice vacuum jig. I use mine almost daily.

[/QUOTE]

Yep, this is the only issue I really have with mine. The rear gasket material is squashed badly when the unit is closed, so if I don't want to squash that material, I leave the lid open...but that allows dirt/dust to get into the press, and takes up a lot more space. Something to consider.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I don't have any such jig, but I do know that there are specialty hinges that will allow the rear part to 'float' or whatever, so that the pressure is even front to rear. Or make your own. Go look at a a deep chest freezer...

With a sheet of heavy construction paper, some good scissors, and a few push pins(to use as pivots), you can make full scale mockups of all types of hinge systems. I once made a full tilt front end on a '69 Camaro that pulled forward about 3 inches before it raised. Just needed a wee bit of planning and some cool geometry...

I was making vacuum bridge clamps and a two-piece brace clamping system for awhile back before I had the chance to advertise here. I also made a guitar holder similar to the LMI one for Shane, just the dish part (he made the mounting parts). I use in-house vacuum fixtures to hold down almost everything in the shop for machining, necks and bridges, mounted inlay, and even some aluminum parts.

If there are enough people interested in any specific part to justify a run, then I wouldn't mind doing some up. It's all about covering the setup time, I can match pricing on Asian made parts if I've got the quantity. I've done some really custom tooling, some of it using vacuum, for Mario. I was using the same type neoprene rubber sheet LMI sells for my stuff, from a local rubber supplier, and I can get that at a pretty low price compared to theirs.

Here are some pics of the bridge clamps, the airtight radius dishes (well, they're acrylic, so they're also water and warp proof and super-tough), and the vacuum lid:

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Very nice Bob...

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I cured the hinged lid problem by filing the screw holes in the lower hinge halves into long 3/16"+ slots. The screws are tightened just enough that the lid can move up & down as the vacuum is applied & bled off. Not a perfect solution, but it works fine 'till I think of something better.
Using #10 round head screws & washers gives lots of contact area & keeps the lid nice & stable.

I used a piano hinge. You can adjust the hinge carefully so that it is up enough to not over-squeeze the back edge. You just have to close the unit an lock up the front edge and hold the rest parallel to the front with some light clamp pressure, then mark for the screw holes and drill. That easily keeps you from over-squishing the seals closest to the hinge. Also, if you inset your seal into the lid so hat it is barely protruding, it won't get squished at all. It doesn't need to be squished to work well. good vac jigs for holding parts are made this way as well.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

[QUOTE=Bob Garrish]I was making vacuum bridge clamps.

How would that work Bob?

I checked out your Website.  Cool stuff.  Looks like fun too!

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Rick Hubka
Chemainus BC Canada

Bob: Sent you a PM. I know a guy who would be interested in vac jigs, but he's not an internet user. If you figure out prices, please post.

Thanks.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=Don Williams] It's a real bear to get a system completely leak-free and able to hold a vacuum for an extended period. I run my press with the pump on continuously, but if you get it sealed up perfectly <lol> you can use Joe Woodworker's reserve tank rig to cycle the pump and also get a faster draw down, if I have my info straight.
The tough thing, as I said is getting the unit sealed perfectly. There are different seals available, from closed cell window seal from Agent Orange or the Smurfs, and there are also some closed cell tapes made specifically for vacuum applications. You can also use a vacuum bag setup as well, but having a frame is the best way to go. In spite of what C.Fox has said, having a frame that is hinged properly can be a real asset. I would reference Taylor Guitars' setup, where they have hinged units set in drawers. That's a great setup, and works well for them.

[/QUOTE]

He didn't really say a hinge wouldn't work... what he said was it kept crushing the back edge of the seal and he eventually gave up on it and used guide pins to hold on a loose frame. It still works very much like a hinged frame.

And as far as getting a leak free frame, Frank Finocchio had a system with 2 MDF rings that were epoxy sealed and it seemed to hold a vacuum very well. You could shut the pump off and it woudl still hold. His base was corian. There wasn't anything complicated about it, but it worked very well.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Bob (Garrish) and I have been thinking about marketing vacuum fixtures for a while now. There are a couple of issues to resolve, aside from Bob and I both being almost too busy. First, these things have a few parts to each of them which takes some time, time equals money. Next, the materials are not cheap. And lastly, in order to keep costs lower (I didn't say low because that does not exist in these things!) we need to "runs" of items to make the CNC set-up and programing cost effective. We have done some prototypes and are talking of some adjustments and, again, if there is interest we will move forward and get some of these things available.

Here is the guitar holder that we made, I have adapted a readily available clamp system to this that will bring the retail cost under the LMI price by 10% or so.







Oh ya, my vacuum set up is simply a refrigerator compressor. Cheap (read free from your local appliance repair place) and quiet!! The most expensive part are the $70 gauges but that includes the hoses.

Shane

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Canada

I don't think that you should expect to hold a vacuum when gluing, unless you keep the pump running or have a very large reservoir tank. The water in the glue vaporizes into the sealed area and provides gas that reduces the vacuum. You cannot fight that with a perfect seal. Keep the pump on, or the equivalent.

[QUOTE=RickH]
[QUOTE=Bob Garrish]I was making vacuum bridge clamps.How would that work Bob?I checked out your Website. Cool stuff. Looks like fun too![/QUOTE]

If you check out the top picture in my post, that's the bridge clamp. You set it over your bridge and pull a vacuum and that black rubber is now pushing down with 14PSI on whatever I stuck under the clamp for that photo :)

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[QUOTE=Don Williams] Also, if you inset your seal into the lid so hat it is barely protruding, it won't get squished at all. It doesn't need to be squished to work well. good vac jigs for holding parts are made this way as well.[/QUOTE]

This part is also important if you want to be sure your parts are sitting flat. Inset the gasket so it only protrudes a bit above the surface of the fixture (1/32"-1/16" is enough if your part is flat) and chamfer the edges of the gasket channel so it has somewhere to squish into.

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

[QUOTE=Bill Greene] Bob: Sent you a PM. I know a guy who would be interested in vac jigs, but he's not an internet user. If you figure out prices, please post.
[/QUOTE]

I think Shane actually explained the situation pretty well. I'll make -anything-, but the cost depends on how many I'm making. If you can get a group together to spread the cost of the setup around, then the prices come down to manageable levels.

On the bridge clamps, for example, I need to buy the acrylic in certain sizes to get a good price on it so if I'm going to slice up a piece then I need to sell a certain number of those to pay for it.

If four people wanted bridge clamps, then I could make them for $90 each. If I could sell eight or ten of them, then I could do $50 each. It's sort of a similar breakdown on the other vacuum items.

On the radius dishes/vacuum lids, I can make eight dishes/lids from a sheet of acrylic and so I'd need to be able to sell some combination of 6-8 dishes and lids to make sure I don't lose out buying the acrylic (which is quite uncheap).

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

$50 for a bridge clamp?  Now you are talking. I'd be interested. Rich

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A higher purpose for wood.
Rich Smith
Issaquah, WA

I'd be in on a bridge clamp if we can get the quantities up...

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Jonathan Kendall, Siloam Springs AR

OK, I'll make a thread for the bridge clamps. I'll call my supplier next week and find out pricing on full sheets of acrylic and figure out the possibility of group pricing on the brace clamping systems, as well.

There are also a couple of part offers coming up, once a certain company mails me a new tire for my bandsaw...rhymes with 'Becks and Tara did fridges'

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

Check out this close out special from Vac-u-clamp Fifty bucks for a hold down that works great on a guitar body. I've had it for several months. It works great.

Also, I had the chance to attend Charles Fox's Contempary Guitar Building. Great class. Learned more in a week than I thought possible. He demos several vacuum tools. All home made from materials available from the local hardware store.

Joe Volin

Bob,

IF you got 6-8 orders for radius dishes/vacuum lids, what would the sale price be?

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GregH
Fot Wuth

I've been dinking with the idea of adding vacuum press capabilities to the shop. While surfing the net, I came across Joe Woodworker, In the articles you will find an article about clamping with DIY plans/instructions for the EVS, the Electric Vacuum System. It may be worth stopping by and seeing what you can garner from it.

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Aoibeann