Official Luthiers Forum!

Hello All,

I know this subject has been discussed before, but, I’d like to go into it a little deeper, if anyone
is interested.

I’ve noticed that, there seems to be a gray area to who is a luthier, and who is not.

For example; Not all guitar builders refer to themselves as luthiers. However, seems that most, if
not all violin makers are luthiers.

If we look at the definition of a luthier, according to Wikipedia.

“A luthier is someone who makes or repairs stringed instruments”

I suppose that is the short answer, but, I’m sure there is a lot more to than that.

Also, my idea of what a luthier is, may not be the same as someone else’s. But, I figure there’s
got to be some kind of standard to go by. Even if it’s just a matter of opinion, there is usually a
general consensus accepted by many.

My goal is to build more than just guitars. The following are some examples, not necessarily in any order .

Violin
Cello
Bass Violin
Lute
Hammered Dulcimer
Banjo
Mandolin

if I were to build all these instruments, and build them to an acceptable quality, to someone who
plays them regularly. Would I be able to say with confidence, “I am a Luthier”?

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Danger Will Robinson....

This has traditionally been on of those questions that evokes strong emotions from many.

Since you are my good buddy Robert I would advice you to go put on an athletic cup, helmet, Kevlar body armor, lock all the doors, and be ready for what comes next here.  

Hopefully I am what I am best at - being wrong.......

Here we go again.......


Didn't I see someone using that popcorn-munching emoticon here recently?
How'd you do that?

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

I think that one can consider them self a luthier when other's who are highly regarded in the trade say that you are a luthier.

I don't believe it is a title that someone can give themselves, rather it is a mantra passed on by those who go before us.

So, say you've spent a lot of time as an apprentice repairing and building with someone like T.J. Thompson (I use him because he is not on this forum, that way no one gets their knickers in a knot) and he feels that you've earned your stripes and calls you a luthier, than I'd say your a luthier.

So to me, it's not a title I can ever give myself, it only comes from those who are already considered by the rest of the industry to be a luthier.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

I became an electrician because I was forced to, not because I wanted to be one.

Mainly I learned how to do residential electrical for my own use. No I would not have called myself an electrician.

Then first one and another, who knew I knew something about it called on me for assistance. Does that make me an electrician? Nah.

Then, others wanted me to wire their houses for pay, because they knew I wired my own. (grandfather clause State of Arkansas)

Well, then I got nervous, always looking over my shoulder wondering when I'd get nabbed for wiring without a license. I applied, submitted, studied for, took and passed the test. Hey, I'm an electrician, with a license, State of Arkansas says so.

When did I become an electrician? Back when I was learning how to do it and became proficient at it. Before friends, customers, or even the State knew I was an electrician.

Yeah, I'm a luthier. In a way, becoming a luthier happens in your head, before you ever flex a top or even pick up a chisel.

One more little story along this line. My son is fifteen, last evening his band instructor drug him kicking against the pricks to a faraway town to try out for all-region Jazz Band. He's a drummer. Yeah, he made it, the instructor knew he would.

JP crawled up on my lap in church when he was three. He says, "Dad, I'm gonna be a drummer." He never forgot it. (we have a modern progressive worship team, unlike the church where I grew up, no instrumental music) (I read Psalm 150)

So, JP loves his drumming, plays now with the main worship team, the Junior Worship Team my wife leads, his school band and jams with friends. In his mind, he became a drummer at age three.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

This is something that we will never agree on. I think it's probably an American thing. Over in the UK you'd never have someone who builds only guitars calling himself a 'luthier', they'd be proud just to be called a 'guitar maker'. To be a 'luthier' over here you would normally have to build a variety of stringed instruments. Anyway, how on earth can you call yourself a 'luthier' if you don't make lutes?

Be proud to be a guitar maker. Leave the name luthier to those incredibly, almost magically, skilled artisans who make that king of instruments The Lute.

The question should be "where did the 'Official' bit come from?"

Colin (luthier)

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I know grown men who went through a "luthier phase" in their life.

One in particular is no longer a luthier, he's a golfer.

Anyone going through a luthier phase?

I got started because I found an interest in guitars after a childhood orchestra experience playing cello in public schools. Oh, and I grew up in the same town as Buddy Holly.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

[QUOTE=Colin S] This is something that we will never agree on. I think it's probably an American thing. Over in the UK you'd never have someone who builds only guitars calling himself a 'luthier', they'd be proud just to be called a 'guitar maker'. To be a 'luthier' over here you would normally have to build a variety of stringed instruments. Anyway, how on earth can you call yourself a 'luthier' if you don't make lutes?

Be proud to be a guitar maker. Leave the name luthier to those incredibly, almost magically, skilled artisans who make that king of instruments The Lute.

The question should be "where did the 'Official' bit come from?"

Colin (luthier)[/QUOTE]

1+

I call myself a "hobby builder of acoustic guitars", because most peope give me a blank stare when I say "I'm involved in Luthierie", they usually say, "Who's he?"

Check out Letters to a Young Poet, by Rainer Maria Rilke.

[QUOTE=Rod True] I think that one can consider them self a luthier when other's who are highly regarded in the trade say that you are a luthier. <snip>[/QUOTE]

I'd go with what Rod says. If you all said I was a luthier, how could I disagree? But then how could I disagree if you all called me a hack?

Seems to me that a true luthier is on another plane (no pun intended) and that too many are of the mistaken opinion that they deserve the title. Sort like those that call themselves artists with a capital A.

I think we Americans are not modest in this regard.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

I built a few "play" guitars in my dad's woodshop growing up, along with learning to play a real one. Later, when I was in the Navy, I rebuilt the splinters that was a Harmony guitar that some drunk sailor sat upon. When I got out, I set up a shop and built my first guitar, that was in 1975. It was so bad, I hung it up for a sign with "David Newton, Luthier" carved in it. How ironic is that.

People would come for repairs and would fill out their check "David Luther" so the sign had to go.

I've been happy to be a guitar builder since. I think Luthiers are like Yankees, they don't live in Texas.<g>

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https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008907949110

I agree with Rod and Pat - you are one when others, in the know, consider you to be one.

What worries me is that if one applies this same logic to what I am..........

My brother told our Mother that I became a luthier. She immediately called and wanted an explanation as to why I changed my religion!

After explaining to her that I was really building guitars, she exclaimed, "Oh...that's very different...nevermind!"

Guitarmaker is just fine. I'll get back at him someday!

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

It's a continuum. Where are you right now Hesh?

Let's see, there's the newbie, hack, hobbiest, novice builder.

Then there are the mavericks.

Then there are the serious type who just love this stuff and would do it for free if they had to!

Then there are the, in the groove pros, absolutely at the top of their game.

And there are the over the hill boys, still keepin' shop, but definitely into management by now.

And there are those who are at work building guitars right now.... not sitting at some computer.....   

Dang!

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

I have only built two acoustic guitars thus far. I have completed one electric and am finishing a second. (All 4 guitars were not fashioned from kit parts but constructed from scratch). I have just started a violin that I am assembling from a kit. (Bought the kit with the precarved parts from Stewmac so I could take measurements and make tracings, next one will be from scratch!). However the majority of my time spent working on stringed instruments is in the repair field so I prefer the term guitar technician for the moment.

I have done repairs on guitars, banjos and mandolins and i'm in the process of learning how to build guitars. i would rather have the title guitar maker not only because it sounds cool but people go wow really instead of luthier. Because if you tell a average person your a luthier they might look at you and say something like thats nice i'm a catholic myself. Most people will not have a clue to what the word luthier means. But guitar maker now thats something everyone understands.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Hello All,

Thanks for posting in this thread. It means a lot to me to hear what everyone thinks about this.
It’s something I’ve thought about for quite sometime now.

First, let me say, that I’m not trying to “Stir up a hornets nest”, and sure hope that I’ve not opened
the proverbial “Can of Worms”. It was my sincere intention, to discuss this subject in order to
come to, some kind of a “general consensus” of what a luthier is. If it is purely opinion, So be it!
Lets share our opinions, and find some common ground, that all, or at least most of us can be
satisfied with.

Second, I’d like to respond to everyone, but, there’s just not enough time for me to do that. So, I
apologize to those, for not responding to you directly.

Hesh, your are one funny guy, and you can always make me laugh! One thing I CAN say with
confidence, is you are not best at “being wrong”. You are a great guy, and great guitar builder!

Todd, I see your point, and no doubt, that self perception is a part of it. I guess, what I’m trying
to say, is that I think there is more to it than that.

Rod, I also see your point, which is, sort of, (In short) the opposite of Todd’s.
The perception of others is a valid one, and I would think goes hand and hand with self perception,
to what many of us could consider a luthier. But, would it be far to say, that these two concepts
would apply to any profession. Once again, I still think there is more to it than that.

Erikbojerik, I meant to post a response in another thread when I first saw that smiley you posted. I tell
you, I laughed till I cried! Hilarious! Absolutely Hilarious!

Bruce, I know right where you are coming from! I’ve been in the residential home building business
for over 30 years, and for about ten years now, I have been able to say to myself, and
others, that I’m a qualified home builder. It was not until June of this year, that I’ve been
recognized as a qualified residential home builder. I sent in my application, met all the requirements,
and now I can proudly say, “I’m a licenced residential home builder” in the state of Georgia!
Not to belittle your point, but this comes back to perception.

Colin, I would have to disagree, with your point, that we will never agree. Maybe, I’m just being
optimistic, but it’s been my experience in life that, given the chance, people with differences of
opinion, through exchanging of ideas, and inquiring discussions, will find a way to come to some
kind of agreement. Having said that, I do agree with you, that a luthier should be defined, at least,
in part, as one who builds a variety of stringed instruments.

JJ Donohue, and FishtownMike, I understand exactly what you’re saying. All to often, when I speak
to people about lutherie, they haven’t got a clue to what I’m referring.


I guess, what I’m trying get at, is the core of a luthier. The basic ingredient, If you will, of what a luthier is.

Thanks for listening,

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

So Robert, when can you say, "I'm a luthier"?

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Hi Bruce,

That’s a fair question. But, please keep in mind, all I have, is a definition of a luthier from various
sources, what I’ve read online, and what I’ve learned here at the OLF.

I could give my perspective of when I can say “I’m a luthier”. However, that’s all it would be.
My perception, or my opinion of what a luthier is. I just wasn’t sure if what I was thinking had any
merit. Hence, the starting of this topic.

OK! I’ll go out on a limb with this, but please keep the axe in the shed for now.

By the simple definition alone, I’m a luthier. But, when I say that to myself, it doesn’t sound right.
In fact, I feel down right arrogant to suggest such a notion. I think we can all agree,
that the definition alone, does not say enough in respect to what a luthier is. So, that means there’s more.
How much more? Well, that seems to be where the gray area is! And, I’m sure there are many
valid arguments, as to, how to darken up those gray areas.

Anyway, here’s my feeble attempt to do so.

I will be able to say with confidence, “I am a Luthier”. When-

1. I can proficiently build at least 6 different stringed instruments.

2. I can proficiently repair those same instruments.

3. Others, who are recognized as luthiers, recognize me as one.

4. I’m qualified to teach someone else how to build a stringed instrument.

5. I’m finally invited to be on that new reality show “Who wants to be a Luthier” (Just kidding)

Well, I’d better get started! I’ve got a long, long, way to go!

Thanks for listening,

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

Robert Dobbs
Occupation: Homebuilder

Robert, One thing I noticed when I taught vocational school, homebuilding of all things, skills in one area readily transfer to another. Give me a mechanic and I'll give you a carpenter in short order. Give me a carpenter and I'll give you an electrician in short order.

Just remember, there are degrees of being a luthier, from the cradle to the grave.

In the guilds of old, there were apprentices, journeymen, and masters. Our personal development in any area depends on a lot of things. 1) desire 2) dedication 3) inate ability 4) opportunity. Many things figure into it. A sheepskin on a wall is worthless unless the knowledge it represents is applied.

I'm sure anyone with a Stradivari Violin, will check out the credentials of a selected luthier, not just someone who hangs out a shingle saying so. There are schools for this stuff, but from what I've seen, many folk are able to build without it. Interesting thread.

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http://www.dickeyguitars.com

Someone that builds and or repairs string instruments with skilled and dedication to the craft as a vocation be it part time or full time IMO has the right to call them self a luthier.

Like Bruce said the cardinals of luthier-ship are dependent on skill, experience and dedication, and are earned not appointed. Apprentice is the only rank the luthier himself gets to choose. Any ranking after that is achieved only by peer and clientele review.

My Grandfather was by trad guild ranking a Master Capenter, Master Electrician and Master mason. He achived these rankings via each trade guilds requirments. But to him they Only ment he meet the skill requirments of the guild to recieve that guilds pay alotment for that rank. The real thing that mattered to him was that he worked and that his work was up to his best effort and that his work was respected. To me that is the mark of a craftsman.

Bruce & Michael,

I agree with you completely! This is an important aspect of any trade/art/craft. No doubt,
that it applies very well to lutherie. I know, I can honestly say, that I have the Desire,
Dedication, Innate ability, and (very fortunately for me) the opportunity. Where I lack,
is the experience, which will come in time. As far as, to what degree I have achieved
at this point in lutherie, I guess beginner will do for now.

Of course, if anyone wants to address me as an apprentice, I will gladly accept the title!

Michael,

My grandfather was in the millwrights union for over 50 years. He worked on the minutemen
missile sites in North Dakota, sky scrapers in Venzualia, for Bethlehem Steel, and various other
places around the world. He passed away about 5 years ago. To this day, I still think of him
often, and aspire to his degree of craftsmanship. I believe I have, in the trade of home building.
Now, my new goal in life is to achieve it in the art/craft of lutherie. In time, I will accomplish this.

On another note, attending a school of lutherie, is something I’ve given serious thought to.
There are 2 schools in Atlanta, and I have inquired to both. One costs $5400.00/6 weeks, the
other was somewhere around $8000.00/12 weeks. That’s quite a bit of money for me to spend
right now, and I must be sure that the knowledge gained justifies the money spent. Moreover,
the time issue is a real problem for me. I just can’t leave my family alone for that long. Perhaps, a
week would be doable. But, who does that? Actually, if I had the choice, I would prefer to be
taught by guitar builders right here at the OLF. But, I don’t think the ones I’m thinking of offer an
apprentice course for only a week. If the opportunity were to come up though, I would do my
best to give it go!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!

The other thing to consider is your audience.  If someone called tomorrow and said they were looking for a luthier to build them a custom guitar, then I'm just some guy that built a guitar in a class with a lot of help from his teacher.  If I'm talking to my buddy in the bar who knows one more chord than I do, then I'm building guitars!  I might even be building awesome guitars!!!  In this crowd on line, I'm barely a tool owner. 

But in 3-4 weeks, with luck, I'll be spending a lot of time sitting on the couch, looking in the corner at my first guitar with a grin all the way around my head, bouncing up and down, and saying to myself, "I built that," and "I'm a luthier."  I suppose I ought to spend some of that time playing too.

Thanks to all of you in this community, whatever you call yourself for being willing to share your expertise with all of us.

Mike

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Mike Lindstrom

Miek,

Welcome to the OLF!

I suppose that, depending on who you’re talking to about lutherie will get different responses, and
It does seem that the word “luthier” is a very little known word. FishtownMike has already
brought up this point, but, you are right. When ever I tell someone that I’m learning to be a
luthier, they say “WHAT”, but, when I tell them that “I build guitars” they say “WOW! THAT IS SO COOL!”.
It is kind of interesting that “Guitar builder”, or “Guitar maker” has a lot more
impact on a conversation than “Luthier”. However, that brings us back to perception. Which may
be where we need to stay with all of this. Perhaps, perception is the “basic ingredient” I’m looking for.

I’ve stated 4 stages of accomplishment, that will give me the confidence to say, that “I’m a luthier”
I believe it’s a worthy goal. But, its still just a basic standard that I have set for myself. It would
be fair to say, that there are other standards set by others, which are just as valid. It would also,
be fair to say, that all the posts in this thread are good examples, as to why this is true.

In short, experience, perception, and the basic definition are the most important aspects of being a luthier.

So, in that context, I would like to say, that there are many great guitar builders here at the OLF,
with way more experience than I have, who’s craftsmanship is undeniably outstanding, that
certainly should be referred to as luthiers.

Well, I guess that settles that! Or, does it?

Robert

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Everything has beauty, But, not everyone see's it!