Official Luthiers Forum!

With all the talk of zoot and curly tops, here's a question for you.

What would a blind guitar player say about your guitars? Would Doc throw down his Gallagher and choose yours? Would Blind Lemon have chosen one?   Jose Feliciano?

Or just blindfold your favorite fingerstylist or flat picker...

Would Martin Simpson give up his Sobell?
Laurence Juber his Martin?
Muriel Anderson her Paul McGill?
James Taylor his Olsen?
Tony Rice his Santa Cruz?
John Williams his Smallman?

Does the function of the guitar really matter much or is is just a canvas for art, craft, and the beauty of the wood?

Take care when listening with your eyes.   They can fool you into thinking that your guitar sounds great when in fact it's the wishing that's taking over.

Hear hear,

I think there is too much bling being associated with guitar building these
day and first and formost the sound of the instrument should come first.

However people have to come these decisions for themselves,how can
you ever progress and learn if you dont make the mistakes of using
unsuitable wood etc in the first place.
After all it has taken us 100 or so years of building guitars to learn what
we know now.
Being someone who is currently building a guitar with crw i know how
easy it is to be sucked in by the beauty of a peice of wood.

However I have often looked at people selling curly spruce at premium
prices and wonderd where it is all going but who is to say that as we learn
as builders we wont find ways of coping with the defects in wood.

After all 20 years ago luthiers wouldent have dreamed of using paduak to
build a guitar but with the advent of heat blankets and superior
construction teckniques we can build with back and side woods that were
hard to build with then.

Thus may be the case with curly tops etc in 20 years as we grow as
craftsmen and descover new ways of building.

But to progress we have to experiment and if that mean a few failiures
along the way then so be it.

Thinks of how many guitars the martins and taylors of the world must
have got wrong before they hit there winning formulas.

there is nothing wrong with using a guitar to showcase your woodworking
skills and high grade woods as long as the main goal is to build the best
instrument that you are capable of creating at the time.

Joel.

Rick,

I don't know but "Blind Curly Redwood" might be a hell of a stage name

I thought a lot of the "Blind (insert name of your choice)" old timer blues and gospel players got pretty much any guitar they could get their hands on as cash and superstardom weren't the "norm" then. Plus if it got trashed in a bar-room fight they could get another one pretty easily. The magic is largely in their fingers but a great sounding guitar would probably take the sublime to the sublimer.

Is Doc Watson blind?

_________________
Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

Rick, in one case I can disagree with you. When I worked at Manny's and on 48th street in the 80's and 90's I had a blind customer who would buy the 80's crackle finish guitars because he thought they "felt good" when he ran his hands across them. He would ask me if it looked like a girls or a boys guitar, run his hand across it and buy it. He probably has one of the new Gibson BFG Les Pauls now
Best, Evan

_________________
http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

[QUOTE=Rick Turner] With all the talk of zoot and curly tops, here's a question for you.

What would a blind guitar player say about your guitars? Would Doc throw down his Gallagher and choose yours? Would Blind Lemon have chosen one?   Jose Feliciano?

Or just blindfold your favorite fingerstylist or flat picker...

Would Martin Simpson give up his Sobell?
Laurence Juber his Martin?
Muriel Anderson her Paul McGill?
James Taylor his Olsen?
Tony Rice his Santa Cruz?
John Williams his Smallman?

Does the function of the guitar really matter much or is is just a canvas for art, craft, and the beauty of the wood?

Take care when listening with your eyes.   They can fool you into thinking that your guitar sounds great when in fact it's the wishing that's taking over.
[/QUOTE]


I get this... totally. I agree with you.

I know this isn't exactly what you are driving at... so forgive me for putting words in your mouth...   However, I don't see anything wrong with working on your design sense while you are at it. I agree that choosing woods ONLY because of their beauty is not going to get you very far, but choosing good woods and making good design choices seems like a skill that needs honed as well.

I really hate to see a guitar that sounds great and is butt ugly. If this is an art (and I think it is) we have to look at the instrument holistically.

IMO, It needs to be a good instrument first and foremost, but it should also be well made and beautiful.

_________________
Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Beauty is only skin-deep...

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I know that as a consumer when I’ve gone to try out guitars I might buy I always played them with my eyes closed and ask people to be quiet while I’m doing it. My decision then is based entirely upon that sound and feel.

However, and here’s the rub, I’m in a very small minority here in that respect.

Most people I see splashing out ?2k on a hand made instrument will select which ones to try from the racks of options in front of them (or on the web). From that sub-selection they would then pick the best and go with that.

So, thinking about it, I’d say the looks of the guitars are like CVs (erm, that’s Resumes for you Americans). You never pick someone for a job based entirely on their CV/Resume. All you do with those is use them is reject those who you don’t wish to interview. So in the same way I don’t think making a good looking guitar will get it bought – but it will certainly help stop it from being rejected before the potential buyer gets a chance to hear it.

Just my $0.02 as a consumer. My mind may change significantly when I’ve actually built a few…

Great thread subject, Rick.
I have a blind friend who is also trained in music theory, has perfect pitch and is one of two people who can write music notation in Braille....

She has promised one day to listen to the guitars I make and compare notes. LOL, her step-father is a fiddle, mandolin and ***** builder and she often will help him in the sound engineering department...

EDIT: apologies for typo: She is one of two people in the UK who can write musical notation in Braille...

Rick, to your comments I say, "Yes, and no".
Yes, because I totally agree with you.
No, because there are a LOT of clients and potential clients that don't care so much about the sound, they are after the bling.
So we have to please them all. If someone orders a flamed redwood top, am I going to turn it down because it might not be my best sounding guitar? No, I see it as a challenge. How can I use this somewhat inferior piece of wood to make the best sounding guitar possible?
For those of you that went to the Montreal show:
Remember the blind man walking around "looking" at all the guitars. He walk up to a table with his arms stretched out and stop only when he bumped into something. Usually a rack of guitars worth >$20k. A bit unnerving.

I've been thinking along these lines recently, too.  I was actually going to post on this.  Rick, you beast me to it!

Its not so much the admiration and respect for beautiful wood and workmanship, because I get that. 

Its about the decadent slide into Rococo excess., everybody trying to outdo each other by using the most exotic, most expensive, most elaborate, etc...All in an effort to stand out from the crowd.  Where I really cringe, is where the design, execution, and acoustic performance of the builder and instrument is not up to the task.

_________________
Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Rick, you got a point.

I gave my neice a Taylor Dred, my first guitar. She played the fool out of it and loved it.

Then, I invited her to come and build a handmade with Genuine Mahogany and an Adirondack top, it was homely too, butt ugly, L double oh! But it sounded great.

Later, on her own, for Christmas she asks her dad for a red plywood top Montana and she plays it all the time now.

I'm not sure I taught that girl a thing.

_________________
http://www.dickeyguitars.com

When I was a kid, about 15, I played rhythm in a band called "Blind Man's Bluff."  The lead player was extraordinary and this band had a huge multi state following.  We were limited because of our ages, to young to legally perform in places where alcohol was served so we did festivals, school dances, county fairs, etc.

Our Drummer went on to be a very successful session musician and his name is Steve (Doc) Myers.  Our lead guitar player, Craig Braton, had been blind from birth and was the son of a very wealthy urban developer.

No one in Craig's family was musically inclined so when Craig expressed an interest in learning to play guitar there was no one around to help to teach him since he was home bound for some other reasons.

With nothing to reference Craig learned from day one to play the guitar overhanded.  This means that his hand passes down onto the fret board from the top side of the neck.  This was not flash, it was the only way he could play.  And play he did - an understatement.  To this day even with all the enormous talents that I see both professionally and on You Tube Craig was one of the finest guitarists that I have ever heard, seen, and have the privileged to call my friend.

Playing overhanded also permitted him to use his entire arm and even slide notes with his elbow......  Amazing stuff.

Again Craig was blind and born that way.  When the band took off and we had money we took Craig to the local music store, Music Mart in Coldwater Michigan and helped Craig to pick out a new ax. 

With no ability to see what he was playing on feel and tone alone while plugged into an old Fender Deluxe reverb amp Craig selected a 1959 sunbursted Les Paul that had been in the store with a reduced price for some time mostly because people did not like the forever sustain of the guitar.  The guitar was priced at $250........  Craig loved the tone and this became his primary ax and we went forward performing many gigs with Craig and his 59 LP.

For the music that we were playing, Cream, Hendrix, Blind Faith, Zappa, Johny Winter, Craig on tone and playability lone picked out literally blindly what is now widely considered to be an example of the finest sounding guitar of this era for this kind of music.

Tone rules but pretty is cool too.

This is exactly why I turn off all the lights in my shop when a customer
comes to pick up a guitar. Plus it helps business that I get to charge them
for the damage of all the instruments they bump or knock over.

Really, I think most of us couldn't agree more. Why will customers
demand such meticulous perfection of every purfling joint, and
immaculate interiors on an instrument intended to copy a pre-war Martin.
A pre-war Martin which of course has far from perfect trim, rift saw
marks covering the inside, 60-80 grit sandpaper marks everywhere, glue
squeeze out, etc?

Why? Because a very large portion of the customer base doesn't care so
much about actually playing and listening to their guitars. In my
experience and opinion anyway. They have a romanticized notion of how
these instruments should be created. I have no problem with that. I know
of several players on the other hand, who will explain their goals and
price range to a sales person, then turn their back and have a friend or
sales person select and play some anonymous instruments for them.
That, and play the instruments with eyes closed to try to get an unbiased
feel of them. These customers are too uncommon in my opinion, but
what can you do.

Then there's the builders, who of course like their work to be neat and as
near perfect as possible. Many are building as much a visual work of art
as they are a working instrument. The ideal for many is to perfect each
aspect to the best of their ability without compromising the other. Every
tiny detail they want to be seen as testimony to their level of
craftsmanship. There are plenty of buyers who want that, and that's great.
Different buyers, different builders, and plenty of room in different
markets.

The same clients and professionals exist in repair. I haver plenty of
customers who emphasize they don't care what it looks like, just make all
functional aspects perfect, and they don't want to spend any extra money
on what they consider frivolous cosmetic details. I hesitate to do much of
this quick fix with indifference to appearance however, because when a
collector with instruments deserving of meticulous detail work sees that
come from my shop they rightfully have reservations about trusting me
with their instruments. Big gray area in between, and however much I may
consider many people to be absolutely superfluous in their expectations,
it can be a slippery slope for a technician. Be too rigid in allowing nothing
short of perfect touchups on every crack or repair that comes through
your shop, and you will lose much of the student and professional market
on pricing. Do too much "structurally perfect but musician's budget
touchup" repairs, and you can tarnish your reputation among collectors.

No easy answer in either building or repair, and I think there's plenty of
room in the market for both ends of the spectrum. You just have to
decide what angle you want to come from.

_________________
Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

It's no secret why fast food restaurants show photos of thier food that look a lot better (probaly taste better too) than the real thing.  Most (sighted) people really value the info the get from their eyes.  Right or wrong, humans are built that way.  Would anyone want to pay $50 for dinner at a nice restaurant where the food tasted fantastic but looked and felt like oatmeal?

Does that mean we should build beauties that sound and play like dogs?  Of course not.

At HGF, it was very clear to me that even the serious shoppers (as opposed to the builders and gawkers) were pulled in by appearence.  But they quickly went on to putting a guitar though it's paces too.

I'm all in favor of the idea that the fundamentals come first though.

The thing that really gets me is seeing bells and whistles that actually seem to interfere with tone.

_________________
http://www.chassonguitars.com

Hear hear,

I think there is too much bling being associated with guitar building these
day and first and formost the sound of the instrument should come first.

However people have to come these decisions for themselves,how can
you ever progress and learn if you dont make the mistakes of using
unsuitable wood etc in the first place.
After all it has taken us 100 or so years of building guitars to learn what
we know now.
Being someone who is currently building a guitar with crw i know how
easy it is to be sucked in by the beauty of a peice of wood.

However I have often looked at people selling curly spruce at premium
prices and wonderd where it is all going but who is to say that as we learn
as builders we wont find ways of coping with the defects in wood.

After all 20 years ago luthiers wouldent have dreamed of using paduak to
build a guitar but with the advent of heat blankets and superior
construction teckniques we can build with back and side woods that were
hard to build with then.

Thus may be the case with curly tops etc in 20 years as we grow as
craftsmen and descover new ways of building.

But to progress we have to experiment and if that mean a few failiures
along the way then so be it.

Thinks of how many guitars the martins and taylors of the world must
have got wrong before they hit there winning formulas.

there is nothing wrong with using a guitar to showcase your woodworking
skills and high grade woods as long as the main goal is to build the best
instrument that you are capable of creating at the time.

Joel.

sorry disregard that last post i posted it again as i had it in open window on
my desktop sorry.

Well said Rick....Tone 1st and foremost. NO ONE could argue with that.
But why not try to achieve both. A recent customer of mine was playing
one of my guitars at party and people were commenting on how nice it
looked.

He stopped playing and said. "Who cares about the look, it is all about
the tone that matters. Close your eyes and just listen... " Then
afterwards he said "the fact that it is nice looking is just icing on the
cake."

Make it sound great first, master the development of your voice/ tone.
Always strive to perfect it. But you can make it look beautiful too.

IT IS LIKE WOMEN....but she has a great personality!!!!!!!!!!   But does she
make you turn your head.   I am lucky, my wife had both!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

OH MY GOSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Typo!!!!!!!!
My wife HAS!!!!!!! Both.
Boy am I in trouble!!!!!!!!

_________________
Andy Z.
http://www.lazydogguitars.com

You know Andy, I avoided that whole kind of comparison so that the ladies here on the site wouldn't roll their eyes at me over a very "male" type of comment.

You found an entirely different reason!

_________________
"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I had a very great classical guitarist order a guitar from me in the late 80s and I asked the usual questions about the trim & other visuals of the guitar.
His answer was "I don't care if it's purple,as long as it sounds great & plays great"

Well when it was finished i contacted him and said your PURPLE guitar is ready!!
He says -"I only meant that to mean "-I interupted him and said be careful what you tell a guitamaker!

Please come & try your new guitar!

He loved it & thanked me for not making it purple!

Now I tell interested buyers that story -just to get them to tell me what they see their new guitar looking like!


Mike

www.collinsguitars.com

_________________
Mike Collins

Hum!!!!

The way I look at it the most important thing in my "luthierie" is the musical quality of the guitar.

The most important thing in my "cabinetry" is structural integrity of the guitar.

Most important thing in my "artistry" is a guitar that is a visually pleasing composition.

Most important thing in my "Hand crafted guitar business" is providing a client with a guitar that meets their desire that has the right blend of all the above.

With out a doubt if viewed solely from the musical point of view, The musical quality is the bottom line. But we do not sell to clients that want just the musicality of the instrument. While it in most cases is the most important thing to our typical client, esthetics is also very important to the custom market.

I truly wished I had the reputation and name recognition to build solely for tone and be able to say D#*m the fancy stuff. But I don't, so I build to the best of my ability to what the client wants. Including the looks.

A blind guitarist would probably say "hey, do I look good playing this thing?"

All of the function of the guitar is neatly closed up in a highly developed and visually pleasing shape. Even if you take a traditional model, strip it down with no purflings etc..., you are still using a shape based upon ratios of beauty that transcend culture and are found throughout the history of art. Tone is of course super important, but function and design in musical instruments is hopelessly intertwined, at least to me. Old gothic cathedrals are built as a chord, the architect would break down one(or more than one) chord into visual relationships and freak out on it. Sound and visual "beauty" share a common language that is still mysterious to us. I know that is kind of abstract, but I love that stuff. I guess that is more design than bling, but hey?

_________________
Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

A blind guitarist would say "Where did I leave that bloody guitar!"

rick, i totally agree with you. but maybe, as a hobby builder, it's my luxury to agree. i'm not trying to compete and survive in a market that has gone crazy for flashy wood and abalone.

here's a couple of other things to consider. retailers make more money selling blingy stuff - higher cost to them but higher markup. so they push the stuff that has flash - even if the $1500 larivee sounds better than the $3000 larivee - and it always does.

on top of that, many professional builders continue to blather on about fit and finish as though it equates directly with sound of their guitar. and then even on top of that, those who write reviews for magazines like ag take the blathering to entirely new and embarrassing heights - giving potential customers a ridiculous and misguided vocabulary to use when they do their shopping or commissioning. most often those reviews are 2/3rds about appearance, and 1/3 about sound and playability.
the average buyer/enthusiast can hardly be blamed for shopping with their eyes when so many experts are teaching them to do exactly this.

and for my part, i think i'd prefer to consider guitar building a craft rather than an art. (some exceptions apply) for most of us, the canvas is not blank when we begin. the shape is drawn, the parameters are predetermined. toying with the details of an OM shape created long ago, then working on fit and finish, and color choice, doesn't make me an artist. that's woodworking. but maybe i could be convinced that the art in guitar making is chasing after that nuance of sound inside our heads when we begin building. in my opinion, that does involve the art of making something where there once was nothing.

just my thoughts.

phil