Official Luthiers Forum!

The most recent Elderly Instrument catalog arrived here a few days ago and I found the following to be very interesting - an understatement.

Martin has an "Authentic" series where they are building some of their iconic vintage instruments and offering them for sale.  These are billed as authentic reproductions of the highly prized 1930's Martins.

As cool as the availability of these instruments most certainly is when I saw the prices, particularly the D-28 I nearly fell out of my chair......

What do you think?

 

Outrageous! but I'm sure some people will be happy to pay that.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755

For anyone seriously gassing for a D-18A, I'd recommend going over to the UMGF Buy and Sell forum.  Should be able to get one in excellent condition in the high $3000-low $4000 range.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I'll be offering a similar product to the d-28 auth, only with an adjustable truss rod for... mmmm.... half their price. Please submit your orders and 50% down payments now if you want yours this century! ... did I mention... genuine hide glue and herringbone purf!!!

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Chris Oliver
Infinity Luthiers
...in the shop.

live every minute...

I saw the prices, and I've seen the guitars. I've even advised at least one
customer to send one of their Brazilian Martins back. I've just about lost
what little respect I had left for Martin.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

How about that "Negative" guitar? That is strange looking.

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

Oh the things I have seen from them in the last 5 years or so. "The horror of it" (Apocalypse Now)
best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

I bought a couple of Martin 2nd necks from John Lewis at the swap meet: Dread sized, diamond volute carved, headplate on, M&T cut, solid (no lams). And I was flabbergasted at the poor quality...not of the neck, but of the material itself (mahog). And the only thing that kept these two necks from being firsts was small pin knots discovered during the rout I guess.

Now, it's entirely possible these necks were intended for low end guitars, but they simply couldn't be compared to a StewMac neck or a John Watkins neck. It's not even close. I really was taken back by it.

I love all things Martin, but doing this luthiery thing has certainly taken the bloom off that rose for me.

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[QUOTE=ToddStock] Look at the bright side...you can actually buy some BRW that is not complete trash, build the customer a better guitar than what Martin is offering, and still keep the price point low enough to stay on food stamps.[/QUOTE]

What's the least heard sentence in the english language?

"That's the luthier's Porsche."

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Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

I played a D-18A at the Martin factory about a year ago, and I thought it was one of the best D-18s I'd ever played...and that includes a lot of pre-war guitars. I haven't played any dreads from any small shop luthiers that were any better. Sniff down your noses all you want, but Martin has sold every one of these they made.

Prices are low in the ivory tower...

As for the 28s, I don't know as I haven't played one.

Y'all might want to re-read the threads about branding...this (the Martin thing) is what good branding does for you...

The quality of the Brazilian that Martin is using on the 28 is not the result of some drive to cut costs on a $25,000 guitar. Martin has taken a firm stance on using non-CITES documented wood - something few of us (myself included) have done. Are they giving up the chance to purchase some wood that's probably 100% legal and much better quality? Absolutely! But at the end of the day, they have drawn a line in the stand and are living by it.

All that being said, I don't understand the demand for the 28A. Seems like you could do better to just pursue a vintage Martin.

I had a D-18A come through on consignment and it was an absolute monster - the bass response blew away any guitar I've ever heard or played anywhere.

Andrew

Many of the Martin necks I've seen floating around ebay and elsewhere appear to me to have been used for testing the manufacturing process. I've seen some made from wood that could never have been considered usable even before shaping, with terrible wavy grain, twisted grain, etc. I have a Martin neck for a 14-fret dreadnaught that has a slotted headstock (not used on any of their guitars that I know of), routed and drilled, with a headplate that was glued on before the headstock was shaped but after the slots were routed, so the slots are there in the back, but not at the front.

From an industrial process standpoint, they have very highly developed processes that would require lots of testing where they wouldn't want to use premium wood.

If I were in charge of this stuff, I wouldn't let this junk out of the factory.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

Problems I've had have not been with this particular series, but with the
various vintage series in general. They have gone to excessively steep
neck angles with super tall, rigidly glued in saddles, perhaps to delay the
inevitable warranty neck reset until the guitar passes it's original
ownership.

I haven't been thrilled with stability of their top woods. Perhaps it's too
green, but many recent adi tops on Martins seem to be ultra-
hypersensitive to humidity changes. Yes, if you're spending that much
money on a guitar you should certainly plan on taking good care of it, but
I've seen tops loose their crown between being bought in May and come
back flat in September. That just shouldn't happen in a Michigan summer
unless it was built too green or moist.

Now this wouldn't normally be a huge deal, as if the top just came down
a little you could simply raise the saddle. Unfortunately the saddles are
already as much as .200" over above the bridge because of the steep neck
angle. Raising it further is just more leverage than I would be comfortable
with on a top that's lost most of it's crown. All this of course depends on
getting the saddles out to begin with, as they seem to be firmly locked in
with some construction adhesive. I've gone to simply routing them out
when they have to go.

Combine this hypersensitivity and locked in through saddle with a non-
adjustable neck, and it just seems a recipe for an often unplayable guitar.
I'm assuming those prices are based on the anticipation of beaucoup
warranty work that is sure to come.

Then comes the overall craftsmanship I've seen lately. The most recent
was some vintage series D-28, brazilian and adirondack. Sounded okay,
played okay. Owner spent around 10 grand on it. Sounded about as good
as a decent $1500-$2000 flat top I suppose, but with the Martin logo and
Brazilian back and sides. The Brazilian looked like flat sawn dirty toilet
paper. Some of the ugliest Brazilian I've ever seen. It came in to repair and
touch up a crack that had opened up around a big resin pocket on the
back. Fortunately, the lack of any character in grain was made up for by
all the random orbital scratches filled with pore filler. Spots all over the
back and sides had those beautiful little swirls. Excellent accent marks by
a skilled factory worker.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, and I haven't seen the latest authentic series,
but I't's just a wee bit disheartening watching so many wealthy ignorant
people being taken advantage of. I guess this is why I'll just never be a
great businessman. I wouldn't consider it as quite so opportunistic if only
the standards were just set a bit higher, but the ones I've seen have been
absolutely nothing more than an average factory guitar with more
exclusive woods.

There are certainly some great instruments that they are making, but they
are just letting far too many others out the door that don't meet the
standards deserving of an instrument at that price.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Hey, I'll sell some of my BRW sets for $10,000 each, and then y'all can build a D-28A for yourselves at well under half the cost of buying one. Place your orders here in this thread...limited number available.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I actually got to play a new Martin D41 with BRW. I was also highly dissappointed. The wood wasnt really pretty, but I didnt mind that so much. The Abalone was pretty and the inlay was done well.

The thing that I was so let down about is that the tone of the guitar sounded like a plywood topped guitar. It was that bad.

I am disheartened that they are manufacturing guitars with paintings on them.... cheap looking paintings. I am dissappointed that they are making the shanendoah series, which really should not be considered Martin guitars.

To me, it would be the same thing as a company like ROLEX to start making watches with quartz movements that look similar to the best ones. Or making mickey mouse or buzz lightyear watches. It would be a degredation to ROLEX, and to the owners of ROLEX watches.

I guess that is it..... I feel like my investment in a Martin guitar has been degraded by all of the cheap stuff they are putting out now.

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Reguards,

Ken H

Ron sorry to not have acknowledged your question about the negative series.  At first I was turned off by the idea that anyone would paint a guitar black......

But what I don't like the most is the white fretboard, headstock, and bridge - it's just to much contrast for me personally.  I do wonder what the fretboard material might be to be white, any one know?  Formica?

Rick's point about how this is an example of perhaps the pinnacle of branding excellence in the guitar world is a very good point.  They can command top dollar based on the quality of the established brand image/perception that they have successfully earned.

The D-18 Authentic is very attractive to me and if I had the cash, did not build guitars, I would be very interested in this guitar.  What does a vintage 1930's D-18 sell for......  This one looks like a bargain for me and I have always preferred the 18 over the 28 anyway.  Think Norah Jones.

The 28 makes me think of a Somogyi, Lowden, a trip to Van Couver, and a case of good scotch instead at that price.......

Hesh if your looking for a true vintage Martin, You should try Gruhn Guitars here in Nashville.I`ve met Mr. Gruhn,and some of his techy`s.I could put in a good word for you.He is the authority around here on vintage Martin`s which are highly sought after by some of the finest studio musicians in town.
                        James

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Oh and interestingly I heard a repair tech at Elderly tell a friend of mine that when they get in 10 Martins in for sale 3 are fine and ready to go on the shelf, 3 meed some work before they can be sold, and 4 need more work to get them ready to sell.  He went on to say that when they receive 10 new Taylors 9 are right out of the box ready to hang in the showroom, one might have a need for some adjustments.

Thanks James but vintage Martins are out of my price range and I made a commitment to only suffer through playing what I build in as much as this will help motivate me to be a better builder.  When I stared building I sold two Martins that I had and a Taylor left with my ex girlfriend.  Other than a 30 year old Guild that is stored the only acoustic guitars here are ones that I made.

Thanks, Hesh. The question wasn't really directed at anyone in particular. I don't have a clue what they used for the FB or bridge. I caught part of an Esteban infomercial the other day and he had a white FB that he was proudly touting as being made of melamine (?). Isn't that some kind of plastic from the 60's?

Ron

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OLD MAN formerly (and formally) known as:

Ron Wisdom

Somewhere in the middle of Arkansas......

The white bridges and fret boards are Micarta, as are the black ones on the
16 series and below. Corian nuts, Micarta fingerboards. Just some slightly
different petrol plastics and phenolics with different brand names, far as I
know, and can be made in about any color.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Ron and Hesh, I'm betting the fingerboard is white micarta. I've got 20 the Martin black micarta fingerboards ratted away somewhere.

[Quote=Ken Hodge]I am dissappointed that they are making the shanendoah series, which really should not be considered Martin guitars.

To me, it would be the same thing as a company like ROLEX to start making watches with quartz movements that look similar to the best ones. Or making mickey mouse or buzz lightyear watches. It would be a degredation to ROLEX, and to the owners of ROLEX watches.[/quote]
Ken this is really nothing new or recent by Martin. They have had the lower priced Sigma line for ages (though produced overseas). I don't have any problem with Martin trying to get part of the entry level market. It will probably turn into a sale of a true Martin somewhere down the road.     

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

What? No takers on my Brazilian sets?
Man, based on the price of that D-28A, they're a great deal!   

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I think that the saddest part of this CFM Authetic campaign isnt that the guitars are sub par to the standard they claim to adhere, nor them being so outrageously priced,
but rather that this a direct attempt to take a swipe out of the custom builder market..
(as Im sure they couldnt help but notice the success of makers like Dudelbostel(-2 pts spelling?) and other Martin replicantuers.)
Its not enough that they (C.F.M) make ghastly amounts of money already - as with all corporations they want ALL the money to be made!
Thats the failure of the corporate system wthin the free market enterprise system, IMO... while it has enabled anyone to make a successful venture with only a dollar and a dream, sadly it inevitably leads to monopoly.
What is it when super sickeningly rich isnt enough, addiction to power..?
Its something our forefathers could never have imagined, I doubt - the world having been so different then.
Anyway thats the way I see it - I just dont see any instance in which someone could reasonably ask over 30k for a guitar, lest it be made of gold.
Cheers
Charlie

Charlie, I assume your post is a joke. It's either that or the most egregious example of sour grapes I've yet to see on OLF. Have you seen financial statements to back up your assertion that they make "ghastly amounts of money"?   

Martin has a right to make whatever they dang well please, and most luthiers wouldn't know how to build a steel string guitar if it were not for the Martin family legacy. If Martin can make money making guitars as they did in 1938, who are you to object? Also, who are you to tell them how they may or may not build?   And if they're getting so much money for these guitars, then why can't you just raise your prices?   Oh, you don't have a market for them...   Please go back and read the threads on marketing and branding.

I'd also like to point out that Chris Martin has been unfailingly supportive of small shop lutherie in America. He was a major behind-the-scenes reason for the existence of A.S.I.A....allowing Dick Boak to spend an inordinate amount of time getting the organization off the ground.

What a totally stupid post, Charlie... Or it was a poor attempt at humor...